Joan, sounds like you're recovery is going well. Very glad to hear.
This post brings to mind "The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage," a book published last year by the contemporary Christian mystic Richard Rohr.
Rohr identifies a general pattern among the "mature" prophets (e.g. Isaiah, Jeremiah): their "ministries" begin with anger over blatant injustices, they mature as they move into grief and lamentation, and then ultimately culminate in a non-dualistic unconditional love that embraces brokenness without judgment.
The broad theme, as I read it, is that suffering is an intricate aspect of the spiritual journey, it's how we "fall willingly into the frightened, blasted, beautiful, tender world, just as it is?"
Something like this view first occurred to me on the passing of my grandmother in the 1980s (I was in my thirties). She had been sick for sometime, so her passing was expected.
Nevertheless, upon entering the funeral home and seeing her lying in state, to my complete surprise, I burst into tears as I was overcome with a tidal wave of emotion - beyond anything I could have imagined. But instead of wallowing in the loss, I was blessed immediately to recognize my outburst as an absolutely beautiful expression of the depth of love I felt for this women. Two sides of the same coin: grief/love.
I have the book but haven't read it. I'm familiar though with Rohr and his insights into suffering as an essential element in awakening. How beautiful you were able to feel grief/love so deeply and release that nourishing rain of tears upon seeing your grandmother's body in the funeral home.
It is fascinating to consider the use of complete darkness to interrupt our habitual mechanisms of constructing reality. But perhaps we might be overlooking how simple and accessible this layout already is in our everyday lives, without needing a specialized environment.
Perhaps we're familiar with that quiet hour of first waking up in the morning, lying in bed with eyes still closed. If we just notice what is actually present before the mind gets going, it is remarkably similar to what a dark retreat aims to reveal.
In those moments, there's simply raw sensation. By not immediately overlay concepts onto it, there is no solid outline of a "body"—just pure tactile presence or touch, without claiming it as "my arms" or "my legs." Thoughts might float by, but they appear more like fleeting images across a screen rather than a solid "me" thinking.
Maybe a sealed dark room isn't necessary to notice this. Perhaps This is already completely accessible, right here in this ordinary moment in bed.
Did you listen to it? He's getting at more than "interrupting our habitual mechanisms of constructing reality" and what can reveal itself upon awakening from sleep. But for sure, many other practices, therapies or life experiences, such as the everyday one you mention, can get at some of the same things this gets at. I was a bit put off early on in the interview because he kept using the word "spectacular" (I think that was the word), and as you know, the last thing I'm trying to promote is "spectacular experiences," but then I realized he just meant deeply transformative and revealing. And that does interest me. I'd be interested in trying psychedelics again, for example, but I don't because of the ostomy. And this interested me because it doesn't involve a drug but may get to some of the same things. Probably because I had intrauterine trauma, still have a persistent fingerbiting compulsion, and have a deep interest in healing and learning, I found this compelling and am interested in trying this out in a small way at home to see what happens. I'm curious! And I thought others might also be interested. But by NO means am I suggesting that anyone NEEDS to do this, or that life will be incomplete without it. It doesn't interest you, and that's totally fine.
By the way, I haven't yet listened to the podcast you mention, but I did hear a similar (I presume) interview with Holecek by Sam Harris on his Waking Up app a month or so ago. Found it fascinating, but haven't moved on it. Maybe I will after listening to the podcast you referenced.
I passed it by when I saw it on a Waking Up email, it didn't strike me as something I'd be interested in, but for some reason, perhaps because of who sent it to me, I listened to the Sounds True version and was quite taken by it.
Yes, Joan, I too had been yearning to try mushroom psychedelics... but it wasn't showing up in experience. And I've gained deeply from Peter's pointers that whatever is appearing—a 'weird' personality (perhaps in my case for some) or compulsive finger-biting—it's all the flavor of This... like so-called 'crappy weather' that comes and goes... just This. (At this point,) there is nothing to "improve."
And I didn't say your post "didn't interest me"—it interested me enough to respond from my experience. :)
Of course everything is just what is, and as you probably know, I often compare our "inner" imperfections to the "outer" weather, and I no longer feel shame about my fingerbiting compulsion, and I could say that I'm at peace with it in the sense that I no longer feel it has to end for me to be okay. Even if I'm doing it on my deathbed, I'm okay with that. But I WOULD like it to end permanently. It does go away sometimes for a month or two, so I know what it's like to be without it, and I know what it's like when it's flared up. It's a very contracted, tense, unpleasant kind of "self-soothing" or "distraction," that clouds over the whole bodymind in a very palpable and unpleasant way, often uncontrollably for hours at a time. So yes, I'd like to have it gone. I'm not desperately seeking a cure (and believe me, I've tried countless cures over the decades), but I still have an interest in things that might offer a new way in. This interview landed for me in a very FELT way, not a head way. And what was discussed in it interests me.
As for psychedelics, I did tons of those in high doses (LSD and everything else) back in the 60s and early 70s, but never from a spiritual perspective as I would now. I don't feel I NEED it, but I'd be curious to try it if I didn't have an ostomy. But I do, and that's okay.
You responded, yes, but not to what I shared, at least I don't think—based on your response—that you had actually listened to the conversation.
This fascinates me and also terrifies me! I’ve just listened to the interview and I can imagine a darkness retreat triggering psychosis in some people. Just thinking about it brings up a lot of anxiety in me! And I know the point of it is to move through that and come out the other side. But woah…
Some 30 years ago I entered an “art piece” that was set up in a museum. It was a life size maze that was 100% dark. I got around the first corner into the total darkness and couldn’t go any further. Obviously it’s different as there were other people in there with all the complications that added to the experience, as well as being lost in a maze. I remember the museum attendant saying they quite often had to go in to rescue people who couldn’t find their way out.
I don’t think I could have gone in there even if I was the only person there. I kept berating myself later on for being such a “coward”, but it was just a no-go for me.
I definitely have a sense that it will bring up some fear for me, which I'll hopefully be curious to explore if it does. And I do think it could be dangerous for some people. That art exhibit definitely sounds like it could bring up a very primal terror.
Having listened to the podcast, the dark retreating Holecek describes sounds very much like the "incubating" practices of the ancient Greeks described in Peter Kingsley's book "Reality".
My sense is that this has been done in many cultures and traditions, and it seems like something that humans would naturally be curious to do. I've heard that some Native Americans did this, and I know some Tibetans do this, and it wouldn't surprise me if the ancient Greeks did it and others as well. Someone in another comment on this post (Kate Case above) describes an interactive art installation in an art museum where people could crawl through a totally dark maze.
I'm listening now to his conversation with Sam which, as you say, includes some meditations, and it looks like he has other meditations on the app as well. I've just gotten to the part of the conversation about dark retreats but haven't heard it yet. Maybe tonight. I have to say, listening to all of Andrew's spiritual experiences, practices and achievements leaves me realizing how spiritually unambitious I have become.
I had actually listened to that podcast because I follow Tami Simon, and I, too, found myself attracted to participating in a dark retreat. Sounds like it could be quite revealing and even healing
Beware of Darkness
"Watch out now, take care
Beware of the thoughts that linger
Winding up inside your head..." 😳 😉
-George Harrison
There you go!
Joan, sounds like you're recovery is going well. Very glad to hear.
This post brings to mind "The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage," a book published last year by the contemporary Christian mystic Richard Rohr.
Rohr identifies a general pattern among the "mature" prophets (e.g. Isaiah, Jeremiah): their "ministries" begin with anger over blatant injustices, they mature as they move into grief and lamentation, and then ultimately culminate in a non-dualistic unconditional love that embraces brokenness without judgment.
The broad theme, as I read it, is that suffering is an intricate aspect of the spiritual journey, it's how we "fall willingly into the frightened, blasted, beautiful, tender world, just as it is?"
Something like this view first occurred to me on the passing of my grandmother in the 1980s (I was in my thirties). She had been sick for sometime, so her passing was expected.
Nevertheless, upon entering the funeral home and seeing her lying in state, to my complete surprise, I burst into tears as I was overcome with a tidal wave of emotion - beyond anything I could have imagined. But instead of wallowing in the loss, I was blessed immediately to recognize my outburst as an absolutely beautiful expression of the depth of love I felt for this women. Two sides of the same coin: grief/love.
With love...
I have the book but haven't read it. I'm familiar though with Rohr and his insights into suffering as an essential element in awakening. How beautiful you were able to feel grief/love so deeply and release that nourishing rain of tears upon seeing your grandmother's body in the funeral home.
It is fascinating to consider the use of complete darkness to interrupt our habitual mechanisms of constructing reality. But perhaps we might be overlooking how simple and accessible this layout already is in our everyday lives, without needing a specialized environment.
Perhaps we're familiar with that quiet hour of first waking up in the morning, lying in bed with eyes still closed. If we just notice what is actually present before the mind gets going, it is remarkably similar to what a dark retreat aims to reveal.
In those moments, there's simply raw sensation. By not immediately overlay concepts onto it, there is no solid outline of a "body"—just pure tactile presence or touch, without claiming it as "my arms" or "my legs." Thoughts might float by, but they appear more like fleeting images across a screen rather than a solid "me" thinking.
Maybe a sealed dark room isn't necessary to notice this. Perhaps This is already completely accessible, right here in this ordinary moment in bed.
Did you listen to it? He's getting at more than "interrupting our habitual mechanisms of constructing reality" and what can reveal itself upon awakening from sleep. But for sure, many other practices, therapies or life experiences, such as the everyday one you mention, can get at some of the same things this gets at. I was a bit put off early on in the interview because he kept using the word "spectacular" (I think that was the word), and as you know, the last thing I'm trying to promote is "spectacular experiences," but then I realized he just meant deeply transformative and revealing. And that does interest me. I'd be interested in trying psychedelics again, for example, but I don't because of the ostomy. And this interested me because it doesn't involve a drug but may get to some of the same things. Probably because I had intrauterine trauma, still have a persistent fingerbiting compulsion, and have a deep interest in healing and learning, I found this compelling and am interested in trying this out in a small way at home to see what happens. I'm curious! And I thought others might also be interested. But by NO means am I suggesting that anyone NEEDS to do this, or that life will be incomplete without it. It doesn't interest you, and that's totally fine.
By the way, I haven't yet listened to the podcast you mention, but I did hear a similar (I presume) interview with Holecek by Sam Harris on his Waking Up app a month or so ago. Found it fascinating, but haven't moved on it. Maybe I will after listening to the podcast you referenced.
I passed it by when I saw it on a Waking Up email, it didn't strike me as something I'd be interested in, but for some reason, perhaps because of who sent it to me, I listened to the Sounds True version and was quite taken by it.
Yes, Joan, I too had been yearning to try mushroom psychedelics... but it wasn't showing up in experience. And I've gained deeply from Peter's pointers that whatever is appearing—a 'weird' personality (perhaps in my case for some) or compulsive finger-biting—it's all the flavor of This... like so-called 'crappy weather' that comes and goes... just This. (At this point,) there is nothing to "improve."
And I didn't say your post "didn't interest me"—it interested me enough to respond from my experience. :)
Of course everything is just what is, and as you probably know, I often compare our "inner" imperfections to the "outer" weather, and I no longer feel shame about my fingerbiting compulsion, and I could say that I'm at peace with it in the sense that I no longer feel it has to end for me to be okay. Even if I'm doing it on my deathbed, I'm okay with that. But I WOULD like it to end permanently. It does go away sometimes for a month or two, so I know what it's like to be without it, and I know what it's like when it's flared up. It's a very contracted, tense, unpleasant kind of "self-soothing" or "distraction," that clouds over the whole bodymind in a very palpable and unpleasant way, often uncontrollably for hours at a time. So yes, I'd like to have it gone. I'm not desperately seeking a cure (and believe me, I've tried countless cures over the decades), but I still have an interest in things that might offer a new way in. This interview landed for me in a very FELT way, not a head way. And what was discussed in it interests me.
As for psychedelics, I did tons of those in high doses (LSD and everything else) back in the 60s and early 70s, but never from a spiritual perspective as I would now. I don't feel I NEED it, but I'd be curious to try it if I didn't have an ostomy. But I do, and that's okay.
You responded, yes, but not to what I shared, at least I don't think—based on your response—that you had actually listened to the conversation.
This fascinates me and also terrifies me! I’ve just listened to the interview and I can imagine a darkness retreat triggering psychosis in some people. Just thinking about it brings up a lot of anxiety in me! And I know the point of it is to move through that and come out the other side. But woah…
Some 30 years ago I entered an “art piece” that was set up in a museum. It was a life size maze that was 100% dark. I got around the first corner into the total darkness and couldn’t go any further. Obviously it’s different as there were other people in there with all the complications that added to the experience, as well as being lost in a maze. I remember the museum attendant saying they quite often had to go in to rescue people who couldn’t find their way out.
I don’t think I could have gone in there even if I was the only person there. I kept berating myself later on for being such a “coward”, but it was just a no-go for me.
I definitely have a sense that it will bring up some fear for me, which I'll hopefully be curious to explore if it does. And I do think it could be dangerous for some people. That art exhibit definitely sounds like it could bring up a very primal terror.
Hola ! Maldita o beneïda bogeria
Encara que sembla que no el canvi és constant
En mil i una relacions tot influenciat en tot d'enada i tornada
Probar retrobar però no se res. Torno al la bogeria del ara i aquí
Vull però no tinc però no tinc prou ímpetu
Estic enamorat però faig com si no..
Però sóc estic,,, sense saber m'agradaria...
Having listened to the podcast, the dark retreating Holecek describes sounds very much like the "incubating" practices of the ancient Greeks described in Peter Kingsley's book "Reality".
Anyone agree or disagree?
In any case, I'm motivated, and lucky for me Holecek is scheduled to hold classes/retreats on this topic at a center just a couple of hours drive north of me: https://menla.org/retreat/clearlight-darkness-and-nonduality/
My sense is that this has been done in many cultures and traditions, and it seems like something that humans would naturally be curious to do. I've heard that some Native Americans did this, and I know some Tibetans do this, and it wouldn't surprise me if the ancient Greeks did it and others as well. Someone in another comment on this post (Kate Case above) describes an interactive art installation in an art museum where people could crawl through a totally dark maze.
yes
A podcast with Andrew Holocek is on the Waking Up app. It includes some meditations as well.
I'm listening now to his conversation with Sam which, as you say, includes some meditations, and it looks like he has other meditations on the app as well. I've just gotten to the part of the conversation about dark retreats but haven't heard it yet. Maybe tonight. I have to say, listening to all of Andrew's spiritual experiences, practices and achievements leaves me realizing how spiritually unambitious I have become.
If you are unambitious….I was going to say then I’m a monkey’s uncle but…hey who knows. I had to stop after a while from the intensity…
I had actually listened to that podcast because I follow Tami Simon, and I, too, found myself attracted to participating in a dark retreat. Sounds like it could be quite revealing and even healing