Thank you Joan for this post. You were really fortunate to live with such a wonderful teacher/friend.I regret you are so far away and I wish I could sit with you and a cup of tea, perhaps talking or perhaps in silence, just sharing presence.
I thank you so very much and take your recommendations because you resonate with me so much. I have never attended any type of retreat and if it happens, Springwater would be lovely
Thanks Joan, My long stay at Springwater in the summer of 2006 was important and the intense practice period towards the end, I believe, encouraged me to continue to trust what I knew and understand ( or not) what I did not know.
At the end of my time there, my 13 year old son list a close friend in a swimming accident. I got home to a whole village in grief. My time at Springwater was a placeholder—but now I was being rolled in this wave of grief, complicated grief, as everyone seems to experience this massive loss in their own way. My next significant meditation retreat was with an English Thai Forest monk. In the tradition of Tony and owing to my autoimmune issues, I set up in a large meditation hall on the back wall and this allowed me to fidget or else I freeze like the Tinman. The meditation center let me do this discreetly.
Your column inspires me to think about this inquiry & questioning. Thank you.
I find the following line resonates deeply: ‘Simply being here is all! Not as a “somebody”—a successful meditator or a poor one, for all that is thought, continuously separating and dividing…’
My frustration and question is, how does one stay present without the constant intrusion of unwanted thoughts? Is it ‘practice’ that is required? A constant ‘re-awakening’?
Trying to "stay present without the constant intrusion of unwanted thoughts" is an impossible task, and neither Toni nor I would ever suggest having such a goal. As has often been noted, what we resist, persists. The transformative power is awareness. Meditation as Toni or I would mean it is simply taking time to sit quietly, not doing anything else other than simply being here, and then discover what reveals itself. Notice the thoughts, the storylines, the bodily sensations...feel the breathing...hear the bird singing or the traffic whooshing or the dog barking...feel the breeze on the skin or the sensations of heat or cold...simply be aware of what is. Habitual patterns of thinking will be noticed--and instead of trying to get rid of them (which is like trying not to think of a pink elephant), simply SEE them. Allow them to pass through, and yes, sometimes the attention will be caught in a mental movie or a train of thought, but eventually that will be noticed--no need to judge it or get into a new train of thought about how "I" shouldn't have been thinking--and again, simply being here as this awaring presence....breathing, awaring, sensing. Thinking isn't the enemy--don't go to war with it. Thinking happens...it may stop for periods of time, but it will always pop back up again. And that doesn't need to be a problem. Just be aware of the whole happening. Awareness is what transforms...not the little me, which is only a powerless thought-image. And, of course, meditation is really about our whole life, but taking time to sit quietly can be very helpful in my experience. For more, I highly recommend Toni's talks or books....or mine.
For myself, I’ve noticed that the resistance to painful sensations and accompanying thoughts just comes up right away all by itself, as much as I would like to be able to allow the experience to be as it is, it all just happens like it does. Every morning as I awake the hollow sensation in the chest is there. I feel powerless to do anything with it, I’m just hoping someday it will change. Listening without ideas is impossible for me, ideas appear no matter what.
Toni and I are not suggesting that ideas and thoughts won't come up at all. What's being pointed to is a kind of open, listening presence...awareness...some call it no-mind or empty mind...but again, it doesn't mean thoughts or uncomfortable feelings and sensations might not arise. They might!
So, first of all, can you notice that what you've written here is a story--however relatively true it seems to be--it's a self-perpetuating, self-fulfilling story that the "me" seems to believe and is perhaps in some way very attached to: "This is what always happens to me, and it probably always will." (My Big Problem).
What if instead you go to bed at night without knowing what will happen in the morning when you wake up? And if that hollow sensation is there, is it possible to be curious about it--not thinking about it, but feeling into it, giving it the kind of open, loving, nonjudgmental, attention you'd give to a beautiful flower--instead of trying to push it away? And if thoughts arise ("This is horrible," "I'm powerless to do anything," "I hope someday this will change," "I wish I could do what Joan and Toni were suggesting, but I can't," etc), is it possible to simply SEE these as thoughts (conditioned habits), without believing them, without assuming they are objective reports on reality? Don't immediately say, "No, it isn't possible. Not for me. This is hopeless." That's just another thought! Instead, can you be open to the possibility?
Can you explore it, openly, without already assuming you know what will happen? Instead of dreading this whole thing and viewing it as a Big Problem, what if you get curious about it, interested in it? Again, not by thinking about it, and not with the result-oriented hope that by "doing this," that might finally get rid of this horrible thing, but with really genuine interest--what IS this if we don't call it horrible?
Thank you, Joan for your reply, it is much appreciated. I will take on board your recommendations. The ‘problem’ that persists is one of repeated, negative thoughts that routinely crop up and then create a circle of guilt and frustration. If I understand correctly, I need to ‘be with them’ till they fade rather than engage and judge.
Yes, let them come, and simply be aware of them, without logging in to the storylines, and when logging in happens, as it probably will at times, just see that. See these thoughts as the habitual conditioned patterns that they are, without judging them or taking them personally or giving them meaning (as in, this is "my" problem, and it means that "I" am a failure, or whatever the story might be). Notice the accompanying feelings and sensations in the body, without judging or labeling or resisting them--just feel them. Let it all be as it is. And notice what else is going on: the birdsong, the breathing...and the sense of presence itself. You might find this article on my website helpful: https://www.joantollifson.com/writing6.html
Thank you, Joan. This post is exactly what I was looking for!
Reading your replies below, I feel again relief. I think my Zen practice has been in some ways counter-productive: 'worrying about' 'trying'...to work with the teacher. I need to relax! perhaps we all do.
Thanks again Joan. I’m 75 and have come full circle. I started out not knowing a damn thing and now that I’m 75 I realize I still don’t know a damn thing and never did know a damn thing. What a relief!
Thank you Joan for this post. You were really fortunate to live with such a wonderful teacher/friend.I regret you are so far away and I wish I could sit with you and a cup of tea, perhaps talking or perhaps in silence, just sharing presence.
I thank you so very much and take your recommendations because you resonate with me so much. I have never attended any type of retreat and if it happens, Springwater would be lovely
Thanks Joan, My long stay at Springwater in the summer of 2006 was important and the intense practice period towards the end, I believe, encouraged me to continue to trust what I knew and understand ( or not) what I did not know.
At the end of my time there, my 13 year old son list a close friend in a swimming accident. I got home to a whole village in grief. My time at Springwater was a placeholder—but now I was being rolled in this wave of grief, complicated grief, as everyone seems to experience this massive loss in their own way. My next significant meditation retreat was with an English Thai Forest monk. In the tradition of Tony and owing to my autoimmune issues, I set up in a large meditation hall on the back wall and this allowed me to fidget or else I freeze like the Tinman. The meditation center let me do this discreetly.
Your column inspires me to think about this inquiry & questioning. Thank you.
I find the following line resonates deeply: ‘Simply being here is all! Not as a “somebody”—a successful meditator or a poor one, for all that is thought, continuously separating and dividing…’
My frustration and question is, how does one stay present without the constant intrusion of unwanted thoughts? Is it ‘practice’ that is required? A constant ‘re-awakening’?
Trying to "stay present without the constant intrusion of unwanted thoughts" is an impossible task, and neither Toni nor I would ever suggest having such a goal. As has often been noted, what we resist, persists. The transformative power is awareness. Meditation as Toni or I would mean it is simply taking time to sit quietly, not doing anything else other than simply being here, and then discover what reveals itself. Notice the thoughts, the storylines, the bodily sensations...feel the breathing...hear the bird singing or the traffic whooshing or the dog barking...feel the breeze on the skin or the sensations of heat or cold...simply be aware of what is. Habitual patterns of thinking will be noticed--and instead of trying to get rid of them (which is like trying not to think of a pink elephant), simply SEE them. Allow them to pass through, and yes, sometimes the attention will be caught in a mental movie or a train of thought, but eventually that will be noticed--no need to judge it or get into a new train of thought about how "I" shouldn't have been thinking--and again, simply being here as this awaring presence....breathing, awaring, sensing. Thinking isn't the enemy--don't go to war with it. Thinking happens...it may stop for periods of time, but it will always pop back up again. And that doesn't need to be a problem. Just be aware of the whole happening. Awareness is what transforms...not the little me, which is only a powerless thought-image. And, of course, meditation is really about our whole life, but taking time to sit quietly can be very helpful in my experience. For more, I highly recommend Toni's talks or books....or mine.
For myself, I’ve noticed that the resistance to painful sensations and accompanying thoughts just comes up right away all by itself, as much as I would like to be able to allow the experience to be as it is, it all just happens like it does. Every morning as I awake the hollow sensation in the chest is there. I feel powerless to do anything with it, I’m just hoping someday it will change. Listening without ideas is impossible for me, ideas appear no matter what.
Toni and I are not suggesting that ideas and thoughts won't come up at all. What's being pointed to is a kind of open, listening presence...awareness...some call it no-mind or empty mind...but again, it doesn't mean thoughts or uncomfortable feelings and sensations might not arise. They might!
So, first of all, can you notice that what you've written here is a story--however relatively true it seems to be--it's a self-perpetuating, self-fulfilling story that the "me" seems to believe and is perhaps in some way very attached to: "This is what always happens to me, and it probably always will." (My Big Problem).
What if instead you go to bed at night without knowing what will happen in the morning when you wake up? And if that hollow sensation is there, is it possible to be curious about it--not thinking about it, but feeling into it, giving it the kind of open, loving, nonjudgmental, attention you'd give to a beautiful flower--instead of trying to push it away? And if thoughts arise ("This is horrible," "I'm powerless to do anything," "I hope someday this will change," "I wish I could do what Joan and Toni were suggesting, but I can't," etc), is it possible to simply SEE these as thoughts (conditioned habits), without believing them, without assuming they are objective reports on reality? Don't immediately say, "No, it isn't possible. Not for me. This is hopeless." That's just another thought! Instead, can you be open to the possibility?
Can you explore it, openly, without already assuming you know what will happen? Instead of dreading this whole thing and viewing it as a Big Problem, what if you get curious about it, interested in it? Again, not by thinking about it, and not with the result-oriented hope that by "doing this," that might finally get rid of this horrible thing, but with really genuine interest--what IS this if we don't call it horrible?
Much Love to you....
Thanks again.Precious advice!
Thank you, Joan for your reply, it is much appreciated. I will take on board your recommendations. The ‘problem’ that persists is one of repeated, negative thoughts that routinely crop up and then create a circle of guilt and frustration. If I understand correctly, I need to ‘be with them’ till they fade rather than engage and judge.
Yes, let them come, and simply be aware of them, without logging in to the storylines, and when logging in happens, as it probably will at times, just see that. See these thoughts as the habitual conditioned patterns that they are, without judging them or taking them personally or giving them meaning (as in, this is "my" problem, and it means that "I" am a failure, or whatever the story might be). Notice the accompanying feelings and sensations in the body, without judging or labeling or resisting them--just feel them. Let it all be as it is. And notice what else is going on: the birdsong, the breathing...and the sense of presence itself. You might find this article on my website helpful: https://www.joantollifson.com/writing6.html
Thank you, Joan. This post is exactly what I was looking for!
Reading your replies below, I feel again relief. I think my Zen practice has been in some ways counter-productive: 'worrying about' 'trying'...to work with the teacher. I need to relax! perhaps we all do.
Thanks again Joan. I’m 75 and have come full circle. I started out not knowing a damn thing and now that I’m 75 I realize I still don’t know a damn thing and never did know a damn thing. What a relief!
I’m 75 too, and so is Joan!
I knew Joan was we should start a club lol. Joan’s great.
Eckhart Tolle can also join our club. 😎
Right!!!!
SAND did a beautiful sharing of this post: https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/article/listening-without-ideas