Of course, what I fear is that if I/we don't "fight" then the Earth will become uninhabitable for most of life as we now know it, and that human society, for what time it has left, will sink into fascism and brutality. Oh, yes, I do fear that very much. And yet, of course, I want that open place of peace and love to be an effective way to change that course. But is it? I don't know. I wish I did know. But I don't. Do you, Joan? Could you share more of how you see it? Thank you.
I’ve certainly had that same thought and that same fear. But when I dissolve or open into spacious, listening presence, that fear evaporates. In that open aware space, I have a more cosmic perspective, knowing that history is filled with endless cycles of war and peace, dictators and liberators, genocides and acts of astonishing kindness and generosity, and I know that humans will eventually be no more, that the earth itself is impermanent, that the sun will one explode, and this is all part of the never-ending process of transformation, and that we really have no idea what’s good or bad, necessary or unnecessary from this larger perspective. From our human perspective, yes, we want peaceful, nurturing, egalitarian, democratic societies. And each of us will do what life moves us to do (or not do) in trying to bring this about.
I’m not a pacifist, and sometimes expressing anger or even violence or war may be the best or only options. But very often, there are other possibilities, or so it seems, although apparently not at that moment, since what happens is (in my view) the only possible in each moment.
But I know the difference in my experience when there is open presence rather than contracted, me-centered, fear-based resistance or pushing—I know which one feels like the deepest truth and which one feels like delusion and suffering. I also see what kinds of actions come from each. I feel that Ramana Maharshi had a tremendous effect on everything, even though he was mostly sitting in silence. I also feel like Martin Luther King Jr. had an enormous impact on society using non-violence and the spirit of love. And I’ve watched as many revolutions that grew out of the best aspirations sank into repressive regimes, and I wonder if that’s because they didn’t get to the root of the problem. So, I would say, explore your own experience and see what you find clearest and most trustworthy.
How do you put these two together? "... what happens is (in my view) the only possible in each moment." and "my experience when there is open presence rather than contracted, me-centered, fear-based resistance or pushing". Do you mean that we have no choice between experiencing "open presence" and "contracted ... resistance or pushing", because whichever experience is/was the only one possible at that time, and thus all the consequences and actions that come from each are the only possibilities? Do you mean that we do not meaningfully participate in or choose how to participate in this world and these experiences?
Rather than getting mentally entangled in the question of free will, I would again suggest simply paying attention to actual experiencing as it unfolds. How do choices and decisions happen? Can we choose to shift from contraction to open presence? Or, who or what is that "we"? I would say that the "me" who seems to be the author-chooser-doer is a mirage, and that mirage is powerless to do anything; but there is a power (a response-ability) right here that isn't thought or will. That must be discovered. In the end, we can't really pin down how it all happens, and when we try, we end up with paradoxes. But in my experience, once we discover the possibility of relaxing (or opening, or dissolving) into open presence, and the more it seems to attract us, the more available it seems to become. But we can't command it through will-power. It is a letting go. No words are ever quite right, and what really clarifies it is looking, listening, seeing, awaring for oneself--and no one can do that for us.
Yes, it is a mentally entangling question! I freely admit. to being entangled in it. LOL! Thanks for pointing to the glaring paradoxes in the possibilities of relaxing or opening or not -- whether by choice or some other inexplicable happenstance -- and our response-ability. In answer to the question "What is Enlightenment?" Yun Men said, "An appropriate response." I love that so much. It is a guiding star in my life these days. Following my heart to an appropriate response ... leads to that place where relaxing/opening/dissolving may happen, or not. I don't really know. As an aside, have you ever discussed the long view you take of the life of Earth with Joanna Macy? I don't know what her view is, but would be interested if you two ever discussed it? Thanks.
Ajahn Sumedho said that westerners were idealistic about meditation practice, as compared with Thai’s, who he noted, have an appreciation for human weakness. He said that amid all the chaos, he felt a sense that everyone belonged. I spent a week in Oaxaca recently and felt the same Amid all the poverty, people were always out in the street enjoying life. It is such a communitarian society that there are no stop signs in the downtown area because drivers considerately accommodate one another. It really struck me how competitive and acquisitive we are in the US, and of course, inner peace is another expected acquisition.
I’m a big fan of Ajahn Sumedho. People often come to meditation with very idealistic, perfectionistic, result-oriented ideas, and they are quickly disappointed! One of my teachers, Charlotte Joko Beck, once said at the beginning of a Zen sesshin (a silent meditation retreat with lots and lots of sitting), “In a little while, you’re all going to be really disappointed, and that’s a wonderful thing.” Being dis-illusioned. Gradually, we come to see that everything belongs, as Sumedho often says, and that we can’t escape our humanity with all its foibles and imperfections, and that ALL of this is part of life. We can begin to enjoy it even! I suspect you may be idealizing Oaxaca a wee bit, which is easy to do on a one-week visit, but it’s often been noted that people can have enormous wealth and be utterly miserable, while others can be very poor and yet very happy. As has been said, money can’t buy happiness.
One thing that really made a big impression on me was the Spanish immersion school I found. The door simply indicates the home of the Martinez family inside was a small atrium with a kitchen in the center with a woman standing at a pot whenever I was there. The kitchen was surrounded by tables with people taking lessons. There were little kids playing and grandparents too. It was a very warm atmosphere. On Friday, after six hours of class I asked to pay them and offered
card. They just told me to pay in cash on Monday. I owed them about $100. All they knew of me was my name and no address. I suspect I worried over it more than they did. It was very different than how business is done in the states
Mar 27, 2023·edited Mar 27, 2023Liked by Joan Tollifson
I think a conversation between the two of you would be really interesting if an opportunity arises. You are two women I admire a lot. Thanks for the engagement here.
My heart tells me that it is the nature of consciousness to make choices. Perhaps that could be better stated as it is the function of consciousness to make choices. We cannot change what is, what presents itself to us. It is what it is and rejecting or clinging to that is always painful. But consciousness responds to what is in all kinds of creative ways (perhaps there are no limits) to co-create this beautiful dance sometimes called interdependence or codependent arising. Both the sayings "You create your own reality" and "you have no choice; everything is as it has to be" are equally problematic to me.
Beautiful, thank you. I'd like to add that what accompanies the contracted "entitlement" stance is, however noble the intention to change what is "out there," there is inevitably an implied arrogance, an assumption that "I know how to help/change." We all know of at least one instance where one person "helping" another or one country "helping" another has had an opposite effect. This in itself can hopefully point one toward listening with one's inner senses and opening to what's true beyond us and them.
Yes, certainly. Hopefully, I made that clear. In my experience, when words and actions come from a more open and expansive place, they tend to be more effective and genuinely helpful than when they come from a contracted place.
Chapter 7 of The Witch Trials of JK Rowling was released this week. Rowling responded brilliantly, I thought, to her critics and to specific criticisms they have made, and she gave voice to so many of my own thoughts on the trans issue, the state of the left, free speech, the importance of questioning our certainties and more. This is the last regular episode, but they promise an epilogue in about a month. Great podcast series!
Lest there be any doubt, I deeply love and appreciate LGBTQI people in all our playful, colorful, imaginative, wild and wondrous diversity and inclusivity. I certainly want an inclusive society that allows all of us the freedom to live in a way that feels authentic and comfortable, as long as it doesn’t harm others. I welcome the breaking down of gender binaries, a process I’ve participated in all my life.
But I do not believe that questioning how any social justice movement is framing their issues, what demands they are making, or what actions they are taking is automatically a form of bigotry. In fact, I think this kind of conversation, questioning and disagreement is vital, and the current attempt in different ways on both the right and the left to wipe out and silence opposing views is deeply concerning to me.
It is clear to me that Rowling speaks out of genuine concern for women and children, not out of bigotry against trans people. Burning her books and calling her a bigot is itself a form of bigotry, and there seems to be a disturbing misogyny behind some of the intense hatred of her (and so-called TERFs).
May we all learn to question our certainties and listen openly to opposing views. I don’t mean we need to give outright hate and blatant ignorance an equal voice in the social conversation, but someone like Rowling is clearly not coming from either hate or ignorance. You may disagree with her, and she may turn out to be wrong on some things, but her concerns are certainly well worth hearing and seriously considering.
I don’t believe trans people need to be so fearful of Rowling and others who raise genuine concerns about women and children. Of course, I understand that fear, because I understand what it’s like to be part of a minority group under attack—I came out back in the Dark Ages before Stonewall—and I’ve lived for many years, since childhood and before I had the labels, as a one-armed, gender nonconforming, lesbian. I seriously considered a gender transition and see myself as someone on the trans spectrum. But fear, hate, silencing people, burning or banning books, or re-wording published books to eliminate “offensive language,” isn’t the answer. It just isn’t. Both the left and the right are doing this in their different ways, and it’s not helping. Or at least, I don’t think it is.
Hi Joan, I'm new here and I'll offer a brief introduction before I respond to this - I found your site after moving to Oregon from upstate NY and wondering if there was anyplace around practicing in the Springwater "style" (for lack of a better word). I'm 51 and came to Springwater too late to have met Toni but her inquiry and teachings feel deeply resonant. So I was glad to find your writing and think of you as a neighbor (from across the state.)
I admit that when I saw you praising this podcast last article, I was deeply disappointed. After your recommendation and another, I determined to listen in its entirety and with as open a heart as I could muster. This I found very very hard to do, at times making me so immensely sad I needed a break, but I finished this afternoon. I read some (not, by any means all) the comments on the substack for the podcast, which I must say, I found unsettlingly unkind on the whole. And since I can't comment there (without subscribing - which ensures most of those commenting are in agreement with the show) and since it was your voice that steered me to it, I'll offer you just a small response.
I too am a cis gay woman, a generation your junior perhaps, coming out in the AIDS years. I'm also the mom of a 21 year old and I work on a college campus (so I have my old toe in the world of the youths.) My spouse is also a cis gay woman and is often misgendered, ordered to leave women's restrooms, once assaulted by a TSA officer who thought her breasts were something she was trying to smuggle. Sharing my life with her and having heard the stories of other cis women whose bodies don't get read as women by those who want to police women-only spaces, it is obvious to me that being inclusive, at word-value, of ALL women's bodies is not only important - at least for me - but also beautiful and very freeing. Indeed when I accept that the body of the person I am with is whatever they tell me it is and perfect as such, I accept my own body with so much more generosity. I am the one who gains when transwomen are welcomed widearmed into "women-only" spaces, this has been my experience time and again.
I have had my life enriched so deeply, joyfully, beautifully by the many many trans and nonbinary folks in my life, both elders and the young. I am grateful they are with us in queer spaces, because they show us possibilities and wisdom far beyond that of those our society's norm. To love someone and see them become their full self is an extraordinary gift. Trans folks talk about their experience as being an egg and then hatching. Many of us cis folks might also experience joys similar to this but I think our experiences are humble and small beside theirs. (Some of the "top comments" I was so disheartened by, proclaimed to be from other cis queers who want trans folks out of queer space. This is more a response to that than to your words.)
The podcast, I felt, took a very sad view of the trans experience, turning it and Rowling's lives into a sort of race to the bottom. Are the sufferings and fears of cis women as a class, and Rowling specifically, worse than those of trans folks? That's a non-question, suffering and fear are not quantifiable (that I'm aware of). Suffering is suffering. It is powerful and real for each person. Is it true that transwomen of color are particularly deeply vulnerable around the world? Deeply, undeniably, yes. Is there such a thing as righteous rage? Righteous violence? I think that's only a question I get to ask about myself and my own life. I do think Phelps-Roper tries to offer some space for each of her interviewees to speak their experience. It is not by any means equal time and the comments that mock transpeople in the podcast's substack support my fear that the podcast is far from really representing "both sides." I think the structure of the podcast front-ends a rejection of the trans experience and only belatedly offer 2 voices, albeit powerful ones.
What I didn't hear explored in the podcast and want to question in your response to it, is whether some of the disconnect here is due to language usage. I think this contributes to Rowling's inability to hear her critics and I found Phelps-Roper unfortunately not contextualizing what she read online or heard in the trans responses. For example reading "RIP Rowling" as some kind of physical threat fails to understand how that is being used now. People will say things like "my dog rolled in the mud at the park, RIP my car upholstery." "Cancel" is similar and used similarly. It's at best out of touch to think of these as true calls for violence. From Phelps-Roper I suspect it's something more disingenuous.
What I hear from my trans friends over and over again is not fear of Rowling or her words. It isn't a real wish for violence. Not at all. I hear deep sadness (and outrage) in response to how Rowling continues to make her rejection of them known. A friend just yesterday told me their handsewn Potter robe is the last remnant they have of having been part of the Potter fandom culture and they finaly got brave enough to feel everything they will feel as they seam-rip it back into its constituent parts to reuse the fabric. This is such deep grieving. Does my friend want Rowling silenced? I suspect something more complicated here. A generation of young people is feeling disillusioned, used, manipulated, betrayed. Rowling spun the illusion they delighted in, now she has disillusioned them, so she is a symbolic recipient of their many feelings that flow from that experience.
I've already gone on a long time and I appreciate the space to share some of my responses. Not as brief as I could have hoped - but less long than I could have gone for. Thank you for this space and your kind sharing.
Hello Alison, I’m happy you had a chance to enjoy Springwater. And I’m glad you were willing to listen to the podcast in its entirety. I commend you for that. It seems we heard it very, very differently. And that is a common human phenomenon—we go to the same movie with a friend, one of us loves it, the other hates it, and we seem to have seen two entirely different movies, and in a very real sense, we have. Because we are each seeing through the filter of our own experiences. For one thing, I’m over 20 years older than you, so I grew up in a very different world, and I remember the long struggle for women’s rights in a way you do not. And as I hope you know, that struggle is far from over.
I’m not sure what comments you were looking at, but the podcast is hosted by The Free Press, so I’m guessing you were on their page maybe? Many substack sites allow comments only from subscribers, or only from paid subscribers. The Free Press, as I understand it, aims to be a place that entertains diverse and heterodox views, not all from one side or the other of the political spectrum. But it’s probably true that more people who have problems with some of the demands of the trans movement were drawn to the podcast than those who enthusiastically support all the demands. But please note that it is possible to have problems with some of the demands of the trans movement without being a bigot, a transphobe, or a TERF who is against trans people. In fact, many transgender people disagree with some of these demands as well. Transgender people don’t all think alike. On my website links page, I provide links to different perspectives on this and other issues.
Growing up, I checked all the boxes for being trans. I didn’t feel like or want to be a girl. I wanted to dress like a boy. I played with boy’s toys. I imagined myself growing up to be a man. I have never felt like a girl or a woman, and I feel way more masculine than feminine. I’ve always dressed in an androgenous way, and like your spouse, I’m sometimes mistaken for a man. From my own experience, I get what it’s like to not feel at home in your given gender. If I were growing up today (in a blue state), I’m 99% certain I would be put on puberty blockers and then given cross-sex hormones. And I am so deeply grateful that did not happen. I did very seriously consider a gender change when I was your age, and again more recently, but both times I decided against it. While it does seem to work out for some kids to transition early (although we don’t yet have long-range data), I am quite convinced that children and teenagers are in no position to make the decision to have these irreversible medical interventions that can have long-range consequences they are in no position to understand. I do fully support the right of adults to transition. I also feel strongly that transwomen should not compete in women’s and girl’s sports. It simply isn’t fair. And many transwomen agree!
I have trans people in my life. I see myself as nonbinary, genderqueer, or gender agnostic. Decades ago, I was one of the feminists who wanted to include transwomen, not exclude them. I shared a room for a while many decades ago with a transwoman, a room where we both dressed and slept, and I personally have no problem with transwomen using the women’s bathroom, although I can understand how some women might feel differently. I think the issues around safe spaces, women-only spaces, bathrooms and prisons are nuanced and not black and white, and there may be no perfect solution. But I think all sides have valid concerns and we should be listening openly. And although most transwomen are not a threat to women, I do think there are real potential dangers in these situations that should not be dismissed.
I think Rowling does hear her critics, she just doesn’t agree with them, nor do I. She’s not rejecting trans people, she’s criticizing some of the things the organized trans movement is doing and pushing for. That’s quite different. And you seem to minimize death threats, cancellation, book burnings, and doxxing in a way I find extremely troubling. I can only tell you these things are quite real. I don’t imagine you’d want to be on receiving end of them. You say, “A generation of young people is feeling disillusioned, used, manipulated, betrayed.” I hope you can hear the hyperbole! Not all young people agree with your views on this—many do not. Not all young people feel “disillusioned, used, manipulated, betrayed,” and I would suggest that if they do feel that way and imagine it is because of Rowling, they are projecting onto her something that has nothing to do with her.
Anyway, we obviously disagree and see things very differently. But I appreciate that you watched the podcast, and that you voiced your views, and I wish you all the best.
PS to my previous reply. Sam Harris just interviewed Megan Phelps-Roper about the podcast, and some of what she says might be very interesting for you: https://youtu.be/5Z6rTJS3uDU
Thank you Joan 🙏 You write so beautifully and eloquently.
Of course, what I fear is that if I/we don't "fight" then the Earth will become uninhabitable for most of life as we now know it, and that human society, for what time it has left, will sink into fascism and brutality. Oh, yes, I do fear that very much. And yet, of course, I want that open place of peace and love to be an effective way to change that course. But is it? I don't know. I wish I did know. But I don't. Do you, Joan? Could you share more of how you see it? Thank you.
I’ve certainly had that same thought and that same fear. But when I dissolve or open into spacious, listening presence, that fear evaporates. In that open aware space, I have a more cosmic perspective, knowing that history is filled with endless cycles of war and peace, dictators and liberators, genocides and acts of astonishing kindness and generosity, and I know that humans will eventually be no more, that the earth itself is impermanent, that the sun will one explode, and this is all part of the never-ending process of transformation, and that we really have no idea what’s good or bad, necessary or unnecessary from this larger perspective. From our human perspective, yes, we want peaceful, nurturing, egalitarian, democratic societies. And each of us will do what life moves us to do (or not do) in trying to bring this about.
I’m not a pacifist, and sometimes expressing anger or even violence or war may be the best or only options. But very often, there are other possibilities, or so it seems, although apparently not at that moment, since what happens is (in my view) the only possible in each moment.
But I know the difference in my experience when there is open presence rather than contracted, me-centered, fear-based resistance or pushing—I know which one feels like the deepest truth and which one feels like delusion and suffering. I also see what kinds of actions come from each. I feel that Ramana Maharshi had a tremendous effect on everything, even though he was mostly sitting in silence. I also feel like Martin Luther King Jr. had an enormous impact on society using non-violence and the spirit of love. And I’ve watched as many revolutions that grew out of the best aspirations sank into repressive regimes, and I wonder if that’s because they didn’t get to the root of the problem. So, I would say, explore your own experience and see what you find clearest and most trustworthy.
How do you put these two together? "... what happens is (in my view) the only possible in each moment." and "my experience when there is open presence rather than contracted, me-centered, fear-based resistance or pushing". Do you mean that we have no choice between experiencing "open presence" and "contracted ... resistance or pushing", because whichever experience is/was the only one possible at that time, and thus all the consequences and actions that come from each are the only possibilities? Do you mean that we do not meaningfully participate in or choose how to participate in this world and these experiences?
Rather than getting mentally entangled in the question of free will, I would again suggest simply paying attention to actual experiencing as it unfolds. How do choices and decisions happen? Can we choose to shift from contraction to open presence? Or, who or what is that "we"? I would say that the "me" who seems to be the author-chooser-doer is a mirage, and that mirage is powerless to do anything; but there is a power (a response-ability) right here that isn't thought or will. That must be discovered. In the end, we can't really pin down how it all happens, and when we try, we end up with paradoxes. But in my experience, once we discover the possibility of relaxing (or opening, or dissolving) into open presence, and the more it seems to attract us, the more available it seems to become. But we can't command it through will-power. It is a letting go. No words are ever quite right, and what really clarifies it is looking, listening, seeing, awaring for oneself--and no one can do that for us.
Yes, it is a mentally entangling question! I freely admit. to being entangled in it. LOL! Thanks for pointing to the glaring paradoxes in the possibilities of relaxing or opening or not -- whether by choice or some other inexplicable happenstance -- and our response-ability. In answer to the question "What is Enlightenment?" Yun Men said, "An appropriate response." I love that so much. It is a guiding star in my life these days. Following my heart to an appropriate response ... leads to that place where relaxing/opening/dissolving may happen, or not. I don't really know. As an aside, have you ever discussed the long view you take of the life of Earth with Joanna Macy? I don't know what her view is, but would be interested if you two ever discussed it? Thanks.
No, have not talked with Joanna Macy.
Ajahn Sumedho said that westerners were idealistic about meditation practice, as compared with Thai’s, who he noted, have an appreciation for human weakness. He said that amid all the chaos, he felt a sense that everyone belonged. I spent a week in Oaxaca recently and felt the same Amid all the poverty, people were always out in the street enjoying life. It is such a communitarian society that there are no stop signs in the downtown area because drivers considerately accommodate one another. It really struck me how competitive and acquisitive we are in the US, and of course, inner peace is another expected acquisition.
I’m a big fan of Ajahn Sumedho. People often come to meditation with very idealistic, perfectionistic, result-oriented ideas, and they are quickly disappointed! One of my teachers, Charlotte Joko Beck, once said at the beginning of a Zen sesshin (a silent meditation retreat with lots and lots of sitting), “In a little while, you’re all going to be really disappointed, and that’s a wonderful thing.” Being dis-illusioned. Gradually, we come to see that everything belongs, as Sumedho often says, and that we can’t escape our humanity with all its foibles and imperfections, and that ALL of this is part of life. We can begin to enjoy it even! I suspect you may be idealizing Oaxaca a wee bit, which is easy to do on a one-week visit, but it’s often been noted that people can have enormous wealth and be utterly miserable, while others can be very poor and yet very happy. As has been said, money can’t buy happiness.
One thing that really made a big impression on me was the Spanish immersion school I found. The door simply indicates the home of the Martinez family inside was a small atrium with a kitchen in the center with a woman standing at a pot whenever I was there. The kitchen was surrounded by tables with people taking lessons. There were little kids playing and grandparents too. It was a very warm atmosphere. On Friday, after six hours of class I asked to pay them and offered
card. They just told me to pay in cash on Monday. I owed them about $100. All they knew of me was my name and no address. I suspect I worried over it more than they did. It was very different than how business is done in the states
I think a conversation between the two of you would be really interesting if an opportunity arises. You are two women I admire a lot. Thanks for the engagement here.
My heart tells me that it is the nature of consciousness to make choices. Perhaps that could be better stated as it is the function of consciousness to make choices. We cannot change what is, what presents itself to us. It is what it is and rejecting or clinging to that is always painful. But consciousness responds to what is in all kinds of creative ways (perhaps there are no limits) to co-create this beautiful dance sometimes called interdependence or codependent arising. Both the sayings "You create your own reality" and "you have no choice; everything is as it has to be" are equally problematic to me.
Beautiful, thank you. I'd like to add that what accompanies the contracted "entitlement" stance is, however noble the intention to change what is "out there," there is inevitably an implied arrogance, an assumption that "I know how to help/change." We all know of at least one instance where one person "helping" another or one country "helping" another has had an opposite effect. This in itself can hopefully point one toward listening with one's inner senses and opening to what's true beyond us and them.
There is action possible even in this expanded view I think I.e. you don’t have to be contracted to act.
Yes, certainly. Hopefully, I made that clear. In my experience, when words and actions come from a more open and expansive place, they tend to be more effective and genuinely helpful than when they come from a contracted place.
Chapter 7 of The Witch Trials of JK Rowling was released this week. Rowling responded brilliantly, I thought, to her critics and to specific criticisms they have made, and she gave voice to so many of my own thoughts on the trans issue, the state of the left, free speech, the importance of questioning our certainties and more. This is the last regular episode, but they promise an epilogue in about a month. Great podcast series!
Lest there be any doubt, I deeply love and appreciate LGBTQI people in all our playful, colorful, imaginative, wild and wondrous diversity and inclusivity. I certainly want an inclusive society that allows all of us the freedom to live in a way that feels authentic and comfortable, as long as it doesn’t harm others. I welcome the breaking down of gender binaries, a process I’ve participated in all my life.
But I do not believe that questioning how any social justice movement is framing their issues, what demands they are making, or what actions they are taking is automatically a form of bigotry. In fact, I think this kind of conversation, questioning and disagreement is vital, and the current attempt in different ways on both the right and the left to wipe out and silence opposing views is deeply concerning to me.
It is clear to me that Rowling speaks out of genuine concern for women and children, not out of bigotry against trans people. Burning her books and calling her a bigot is itself a form of bigotry, and there seems to be a disturbing misogyny behind some of the intense hatred of her (and so-called TERFs).
May we all learn to question our certainties and listen openly to opposing views. I don’t mean we need to give outright hate and blatant ignorance an equal voice in the social conversation, but someone like Rowling is clearly not coming from either hate or ignorance. You may disagree with her, and she may turn out to be wrong on some things, but her concerns are certainly well worth hearing and seriously considering.
I don’t believe trans people need to be so fearful of Rowling and others who raise genuine concerns about women and children. Of course, I understand that fear, because I understand what it’s like to be part of a minority group under attack—I came out back in the Dark Ages before Stonewall—and I’ve lived for many years, since childhood and before I had the labels, as a one-armed, gender nonconforming, lesbian. I seriously considered a gender transition and see myself as someone on the trans spectrum. But fear, hate, silencing people, burning or banning books, or re-wording published books to eliminate “offensive language,” isn’t the answer. It just isn’t. Both the left and the right are doing this in their different ways, and it’s not helping. Or at least, I don’t think it is.
https://www.thefp.com/p/jk-rowling-addresses-her-critics
Hi Joan, I'm new here and I'll offer a brief introduction before I respond to this - I found your site after moving to Oregon from upstate NY and wondering if there was anyplace around practicing in the Springwater "style" (for lack of a better word). I'm 51 and came to Springwater too late to have met Toni but her inquiry and teachings feel deeply resonant. So I was glad to find your writing and think of you as a neighbor (from across the state.)
I admit that when I saw you praising this podcast last article, I was deeply disappointed. After your recommendation and another, I determined to listen in its entirety and with as open a heart as I could muster. This I found very very hard to do, at times making me so immensely sad I needed a break, but I finished this afternoon. I read some (not, by any means all) the comments on the substack for the podcast, which I must say, I found unsettlingly unkind on the whole. And since I can't comment there (without subscribing - which ensures most of those commenting are in agreement with the show) and since it was your voice that steered me to it, I'll offer you just a small response.
I too am a cis gay woman, a generation your junior perhaps, coming out in the AIDS years. I'm also the mom of a 21 year old and I work on a college campus (so I have my old toe in the world of the youths.) My spouse is also a cis gay woman and is often misgendered, ordered to leave women's restrooms, once assaulted by a TSA officer who thought her breasts were something she was trying to smuggle. Sharing my life with her and having heard the stories of other cis women whose bodies don't get read as women by those who want to police women-only spaces, it is obvious to me that being inclusive, at word-value, of ALL women's bodies is not only important - at least for me - but also beautiful and very freeing. Indeed when I accept that the body of the person I am with is whatever they tell me it is and perfect as such, I accept my own body with so much more generosity. I am the one who gains when transwomen are welcomed widearmed into "women-only" spaces, this has been my experience time and again.
I have had my life enriched so deeply, joyfully, beautifully by the many many trans and nonbinary folks in my life, both elders and the young. I am grateful they are with us in queer spaces, because they show us possibilities and wisdom far beyond that of those our society's norm. To love someone and see them become their full self is an extraordinary gift. Trans folks talk about their experience as being an egg and then hatching. Many of us cis folks might also experience joys similar to this but I think our experiences are humble and small beside theirs. (Some of the "top comments" I was so disheartened by, proclaimed to be from other cis queers who want trans folks out of queer space. This is more a response to that than to your words.)
The podcast, I felt, took a very sad view of the trans experience, turning it and Rowling's lives into a sort of race to the bottom. Are the sufferings and fears of cis women as a class, and Rowling specifically, worse than those of trans folks? That's a non-question, suffering and fear are not quantifiable (that I'm aware of). Suffering is suffering. It is powerful and real for each person. Is it true that transwomen of color are particularly deeply vulnerable around the world? Deeply, undeniably, yes. Is there such a thing as righteous rage? Righteous violence? I think that's only a question I get to ask about myself and my own life. I do think Phelps-Roper tries to offer some space for each of her interviewees to speak their experience. It is not by any means equal time and the comments that mock transpeople in the podcast's substack support my fear that the podcast is far from really representing "both sides." I think the structure of the podcast front-ends a rejection of the trans experience and only belatedly offer 2 voices, albeit powerful ones.
What I didn't hear explored in the podcast and want to question in your response to it, is whether some of the disconnect here is due to language usage. I think this contributes to Rowling's inability to hear her critics and I found Phelps-Roper unfortunately not contextualizing what she read online or heard in the trans responses. For example reading "RIP Rowling" as some kind of physical threat fails to understand how that is being used now. People will say things like "my dog rolled in the mud at the park, RIP my car upholstery." "Cancel" is similar and used similarly. It's at best out of touch to think of these as true calls for violence. From Phelps-Roper I suspect it's something more disingenuous.
What I hear from my trans friends over and over again is not fear of Rowling or her words. It isn't a real wish for violence. Not at all. I hear deep sadness (and outrage) in response to how Rowling continues to make her rejection of them known. A friend just yesterday told me their handsewn Potter robe is the last remnant they have of having been part of the Potter fandom culture and they finaly got brave enough to feel everything they will feel as they seam-rip it back into its constituent parts to reuse the fabric. This is such deep grieving. Does my friend want Rowling silenced? I suspect something more complicated here. A generation of young people is feeling disillusioned, used, manipulated, betrayed. Rowling spun the illusion they delighted in, now she has disillusioned them, so she is a symbolic recipient of their many feelings that flow from that experience.
I've already gone on a long time and I appreciate the space to share some of my responses. Not as brief as I could have hoped - but less long than I could have gone for. Thank you for this space and your kind sharing.
Hello Alison, I’m happy you had a chance to enjoy Springwater. And I’m glad you were willing to listen to the podcast in its entirety. I commend you for that. It seems we heard it very, very differently. And that is a common human phenomenon—we go to the same movie with a friend, one of us loves it, the other hates it, and we seem to have seen two entirely different movies, and in a very real sense, we have. Because we are each seeing through the filter of our own experiences. For one thing, I’m over 20 years older than you, so I grew up in a very different world, and I remember the long struggle for women’s rights in a way you do not. And as I hope you know, that struggle is far from over.
I’m not sure what comments you were looking at, but the podcast is hosted by The Free Press, so I’m guessing you were on their page maybe? Many substack sites allow comments only from subscribers, or only from paid subscribers. The Free Press, as I understand it, aims to be a place that entertains diverse and heterodox views, not all from one side or the other of the political spectrum. But it’s probably true that more people who have problems with some of the demands of the trans movement were drawn to the podcast than those who enthusiastically support all the demands. But please note that it is possible to have problems with some of the demands of the trans movement without being a bigot, a transphobe, or a TERF who is against trans people. In fact, many transgender people disagree with some of these demands as well. Transgender people don’t all think alike. On my website links page, I provide links to different perspectives on this and other issues.
Growing up, I checked all the boxes for being trans. I didn’t feel like or want to be a girl. I wanted to dress like a boy. I played with boy’s toys. I imagined myself growing up to be a man. I have never felt like a girl or a woman, and I feel way more masculine than feminine. I’ve always dressed in an androgenous way, and like your spouse, I’m sometimes mistaken for a man. From my own experience, I get what it’s like to not feel at home in your given gender. If I were growing up today (in a blue state), I’m 99% certain I would be put on puberty blockers and then given cross-sex hormones. And I am so deeply grateful that did not happen. I did very seriously consider a gender change when I was your age, and again more recently, but both times I decided against it. While it does seem to work out for some kids to transition early (although we don’t yet have long-range data), I am quite convinced that children and teenagers are in no position to make the decision to have these irreversible medical interventions that can have long-range consequences they are in no position to understand. I do fully support the right of adults to transition. I also feel strongly that transwomen should not compete in women’s and girl’s sports. It simply isn’t fair. And many transwomen agree!
I have trans people in my life. I see myself as nonbinary, genderqueer, or gender agnostic. Decades ago, I was one of the feminists who wanted to include transwomen, not exclude them. I shared a room for a while many decades ago with a transwoman, a room where we both dressed and slept, and I personally have no problem with transwomen using the women’s bathroom, although I can understand how some women might feel differently. I think the issues around safe spaces, women-only spaces, bathrooms and prisons are nuanced and not black and white, and there may be no perfect solution. But I think all sides have valid concerns and we should be listening openly. And although most transwomen are not a threat to women, I do think there are real potential dangers in these situations that should not be dismissed.
I think Rowling does hear her critics, she just doesn’t agree with them, nor do I. She’s not rejecting trans people, she’s criticizing some of the things the organized trans movement is doing and pushing for. That’s quite different. And you seem to minimize death threats, cancellation, book burnings, and doxxing in a way I find extremely troubling. I can only tell you these things are quite real. I don’t imagine you’d want to be on receiving end of them. You say, “A generation of young people is feeling disillusioned, used, manipulated, betrayed.” I hope you can hear the hyperbole! Not all young people agree with your views on this—many do not. Not all young people feel “disillusioned, used, manipulated, betrayed,” and I would suggest that if they do feel that way and imagine it is because of Rowling, they are projecting onto her something that has nothing to do with her.
Anyway, we obviously disagree and see things very differently. But I appreciate that you watched the podcast, and that you voiced your views, and I wish you all the best.
PS to my previous reply. Sam Harris just interviewed Megan Phelps-Roper about the podcast, and some of what she says might be very interesting for you: https://youtu.be/5Z6rTJS3uDU
Thank you!
Thanks, Joan. <3