I am also 76 years old, and I have a pretty good life: fairly good health, enough of everything, satisfying relationships, and interesting days. I don't think I will regret not having done anything else with my life if I should ponder this on my deathbed, so there is no particular agenda remaining. I am content with each day.
However, I am aware that in the life of most human beings things begin to become tougher physically after 80 and the probability of the occurrence of some debilitating and/or painful condition increases exponentially.
So I was wondering: why not go out on a high note, say at 80 - if I should make it that far - rather than wait for that diagnosis of doom, or a stroke or a wheelchair? Why not leave some money for my family and friends rather than using it for palliative care for myself? Or, if I should run out of funds, why put them in the position of perhaps having to pay for the care of a dying body?
So why not gradually start ending what has been a challenging but also a very interesting life, and say goodbye to it all during my 80th year? Everyone will have had a fair warning and will hopefully be at peace with my end.
I have discussed this with some of my friends and I was pleasantly surprised that some of them did not reject my plan out of hand. So I would be very grateful to hear your opinion too.
Of course all of this is predicated on the idea that I am (in) this body, which from the nondual perspective is a fantasy, but could it be that the whole is generating this intention, and that it is not necessarily an ego-centered issue?
Hi John- I understand your calculus- I have the same thoughts. In reading your post, the thought occurred that not wanting to live a less ambulatory life is also a refusal of “what is” present or coming. Welcoming even this stage might be a great teaching for you and others. Thank you for writing so honestly-
Hi Billie, I mentioned and commented on your comment in my reply to John below. I agree that being incapacitated, maybe especially for someone whose self-image is very much about being independent, in control and self-reliant, can be a great lesson in interdependence, humility, acceptance, surrender, grace and love. And while being a caretaker of an incapacitated friend, partner or family member can be a huge burden, it can also be an enormous gift. In my case, I'm very grateful my mother lived into her 90s and that I got to be with her in those last years. It was a gift. But at the same time, I would fully support anyone who chooses to end their life for the reasons John describes, and I wish it were legal to do so here in the US in the way it is in Canada now.
Yes, as I pondered this issue I had to agree with you that I could just be wanting to avoid "what is" and in the process be denying myself an opportunity to grow psychologically/spiritually - if that can be said to be the purpose of a human life.
However, not knowing the purpose of human life I could not come to a conclusion.
But sticking with that view for now, I wondered if maybe my premature death might deprive others of opportunities for growth? That is possible, so maybe I should stick around, for their sake.
However, I then thought: what if my demise might be a stimulus for the growth of others, for instance my only sibling who is close to me and I think would find my absence challenging. Might she not find that she grows as a result of being "abandoned."?
I could not come to any clear conclusions on these matters, however, which is why I am asking for other opinions. Thank you again for yours.🙏
Hi. Provocative post! I am 73 and definitely would want to end things if I get a terminal diagnosis of any kind. However, your idea of making an appointment with death really unnerved me. I think I would see a book-end to my life where presently there isn't one, and I'd be counting down the years and days until the big farewell. Maybe it's something we just surrender to and let nature take its course? Accepting the mystery of how our lives and death will unfold? I'm not sure, but it seems that as long as I am well and conscious, life wants to keep on keepin' on. I look forward to Joan's sage words on this.
I'm a so far, quite healthy 75 and I also feel the apprehension that you do, but as a survivor of a parental suicide, I recoil from the very idea at a visceral level. After my father's death, my mother began researching near death experiences to find reports that attempted suicides experienced a powerful sense of disapproval. She was tormented by this because she felt my father was in particular need of compassion, as is everyone bereft enough to end their own life. All that we take from this life is our actions, and ending any life is a burden I'd be loathe to carry.
Toni Packer had experienced a number of close family members and one student committing or attempting suicide, and I suspect that this, along with her sense of responsibility to the Center she had founded, kept her from ending her own life, the last 10 years of which were lived in increasing pain and disability and eventually being bedridden for the last few years. So I can hear your concerns. But I think it's also possible for someone, at least in some circumstances, to do this in a way that those left behind can understand and accept and even feel supportive and positive about it. I've seen examples of that as well. Years before she died, maybe in her 70s, my mother asked me if I would help her fast to death one day if it became necessary, and I said yes. It turned out not to be needed. I personally have no belief at all in some kind of post-death disapproval of suicide. That sounds like fear-based superstition to me.
I would not in any way disapprove if you did this, I'd understand completely, and I have considered it myself, although I'd be more likely to do this in the face of a diagnosis such as Alzheimer's or a condition that would force me into a nursing home. I think our culture's obsession with living as long as possible, fearing death, and prolonging life at all costs is absurd. We are kinder to our animal companions in this regard.
But I also understand Billie Lynn's response to your comment. I know many quadriplegics living wonderful and fulfilling lives, and anyone imagining the life of Helen Keller would be surprised to read her writings...or Jacques Lusseyran who wrote And There Was Light...and I know from my own life that this is true. So I think we each have to trust that we will know what to do, and that there is no one right answer to these questions.
I recommend Lionel Shriver's wonderful novel, Should We Stay or Should We Go, examining the possibilities. Also Katy Butler's book Knocking on Heaven's Door about the end of life journey of her father. Both books are described on my website recommended books page (https://www.joantollifson.com/recommend.html), as is And There Was Light. Also the old great movie, Harold and Maud, in which Maud does exactly this. And I discuss physican-assisted dying in my most recent book, DEATH: The End of Self-Improvement. I've written several articles as well in support of our right to die in a medically reliable and comfortable way at the time of our own choosing, and this is now available in Canada.
I can see that several more people have replied to your comment while I've been typing, so I will end here and read those.
I am so grateful for your response Joan. It is a great relief to me since I share your view that our culture's obsession with squeezing the last minute out of life is absurd, and even unkind.
And thank you for your many helpful suggestions for further exploration.
I find much comfort in the idea that we can each trust that we will know what to do when the times comes to do it, or not.
Hey John - really interesting discussion you've given birth to there!
I think that we can only respond skilfully to the circumstances of the moment - although of course that response will inevitably be conditioned in part by memories of the past and thoughts of a future, and the beliefs we acquire and modify along the way. There is, I think, no absolute right or wrong that applies in all situations, and whatever we do in the moment is, by definition, what we need to do in that moment. Thank you.
Yes, I agree with you entirely, and your sentiments echo what I thought was a fine piece of common-sense advice from a friend of mine: she said, "Why not wait for a diagnosis?"
That made much sense to me and I am now more aware that I was trying to pre-empt things because I am so fearful of future suffering.
But who is to say if that suffering will even happen? I might kick the bucket in my sleep, or maybe the suffering will be alleviated effectively by drugs. Who knows?
So I have put this issue on the back-burner for a while where I hope it will percolate away and bring greater clarity.
In the meanwhile discussions like these and comments like yours help light the way, thank you very much.
John, you feel like a kindred spirit to me. Thank you for bringing up this discussion on this mostly tabooed and outlawed subject. I too would chime in like several others have pointed out that I would make it some external trigger(such as a quality-of-life eroding diagnosis) driven rather than a number(80) driven decision. I'm a nonduality newbie. When I bring up the same question, some nondual oriented friends of mine tell me 'Are you in the here and now? Why are you planning for some unknown future? You'll take the appropriate call when the time comes'. That response doesn't resonate with me. I like to foresee and plan. Of course I understand the future can spring all sorts of surprises and derail my plans but I still want to think and have a plan of action for future. Thank you again for bringing up this subject here.
I would be happy to learn more about your non-dual perspectives with regards to planning. What level of planning is optimal/functional and what level of planning is considered obsessive? Perhaps it isn't even about planning/non-planning but what sort of mindfulnesss/presence you bring in to the process of planning? I tend to get confused applying the non dual teaching because I'm not really sure if I'm getting what the teachers are trying to communicate.
Vijay, if you want to have an extended conversation with John about planning and his thoughts about it, I suggest you do so by messaging him on Substack chat. From my perspective, you are over-thinking everything, Vijay. Planning is fine. We need to make plans. Attachment to outcomes is where we suffer. We can plan a vacation or our retirement or tonight's dinner, and that's fine, but they may not turn out as planned. Can we roll with how it is when it doesn't go as planned? And if planning becomes obsessive, can we notice that and maybe relax into not knowing what's going to happen?
Hi Joan, Thank you for the feedback. I don't really seem to have a control on my level of thinking and analyzing. My mind is seeking for an understanding. How do I drop the seeking? How do I know the planning has become obsessive? The process of planning is enjoyable for me. So, I don't tend to agree that I'm obsessive.
Hi again Vijay, I wish I felt equipped to answer your question. If you find planning enjoyable there seems to be no problem.
I also find it enjoyable up to a point, but I find that I sometimes use it as a distraction from uncomfortable feelings that are coming up. One can only judge this for oneself.
I am unfortunately not able to have a longer discussion, due to health reasons. I hope you will not take it personally. You seem to be a keen seeker and it is exciting to see how you are questioning yourself and others, wonderful!
I would suggest that you find a teacher with whom you feel you can connect in order to take your inquiry deeper.
A good teacher knows how to judge the perspective from which you are coming and thus provide the appropriate guidance. Their answers and recommendations will depend entirely on that and will sometimes differ dramatically from seeker to seeker. Even the Buddha fashioned his teachings for individuals.
I wish you well. If you are new to these teachings, as I think you said, it might be wise to listen a lot and speak little, for now. Let the teachings soak in over time, be gentle with yourself, and apply patience - lots of it - and things will begin to fall into place. Blessings to you.
John, Your last paragraph is great advice for Vijay: "If you are new to these teachings, as I think you said, it might be wise to listen a lot and speak little, for now. Let the teachings soak in over time, be gentle with yourself, and apply patience - lots of it - and things will begin to fall into place. Blessings to you."
I'm not inclined to agree that "A good teacher knows how to judge the perspective from which you are coming and thus provide the appropriate guidance." I try to dissuade people who come to me from imagining that I know what they need. As I say on the page of my website about individual meetings: "Joan meets you with no agenda, not knowing what will happen. In her view, all of us are inseparable, choiceless movements of this inconceivable, indivisible, seamless, boundless presence, exploring and discovering together as one whole happening. Each of us is a unique expression, and no one knows what anyone else needs, but we can look and listen together and see what emerges."
I've had some wonderful teachers, so I'm not against teachers. Just the notion that they have magical powers or that they know what you need. They do their best, and sometimes it hits the target and sometimes it misses.
I wish you well with your health issue, whatever it may be. I'm currently experiencing a great deal of back pain, so I can empathize with the effects.
I do hope you will read Lionel Shriver's Should we Stay or Should We Go, as I think you'd enjoy it.
I am sorry that you did not check with me what I had meant. I certainly did not mean, or say, that teachers have magical powers, but I can see that what I had said might be interpreted as meaning that teachers do know what students need.
What I meant was that a good teacher, because they have walked the hard road, knows some of the pitfalls and has the openness and sensitivity to feel where a questioner is coming from and has the openness to let the answers speak through them, which is why I pointed out to Vijay that the Buddha, for instance, tailored his answers to accord with the point of view of the questioner. He met people where they were and did not speak over their heads when they weren't able to hear him, though on occasion he did challenge them too, as you do.
So I don't see how that conflicts with your view, but it is possible that I misunderstand it.
Thank you for reminding me of Shriver's book, and thank you for your good wishes. I'll send golden light for your painful back - it's part of my practice ;-)
You say "Ramana wasn’t telling people to get to some better place or to imagine that he had something they didn’t." But the fact is, that the "right here right now" message is so difficult for most people to get , that it still creates a difference between those who "get it" and those who don't. Even if there is nothing to get and it's all prefect right now, the fact that I don't get it still puts me in the same place. Do you see my point?
Ido, I get what you are saying and I hope Joan responds. As difficult as it is I then try to "enter the now" from there - wherever I am in this moment...not resisting...allowing what is to be...not a practice for the feint of heart. 😍 Your question/comment was most helpful to me. Thank you. Sending Love, Tom
I see exactly what you mean. I think it becomes very difficult when our experience involves pain that we would do anything to escape. I had some PTSD that resulted in a lengthy episode of clinical depression followed up by an anxiety disorder that I've spent a lot of time sitting with. Living this life requires that we be very compassionate and patient with whatever it is we, and the people we love experience.
Life includes pain, physical and emotional. I'm currently having very bad back pain. I went through a very painful cancer treatment some years ago. My fingerbiting compulsion, which has recently disappeared, was very painful. I've had extended episodes of depression and I still have dark moods at times. I don't have a right hand, I was gay back when that was really hard, and I nearly died from alcohol addiction. I've felt grief and sorrow and outrage at many times in my life. And I have had a very lucky life. I had loving parents, I've had enough money to be comfortable, I'm not living in a war zone, and I'm in pretty good health for my age. So many endure far worse. And yes, this is where it gets challenging, when life gets hard, as it always does. But all those experiences have enriched me. Somehow, it seems we need the grit that creates the pearl.
Yes, indeed there is an apparent difference. You actually do "get it" because here it is, here you are, right here, right now. The only apparent obstacle is the belief that "this isn't it" and "I don't get it." And even that is simply the way THIS is presently showing up. You can't not be here now, present and aware. It's always already the case. Just SEE that the apparent problem is nothing but thoughts and stories about a "me" who isn't really there in the way we think. Instead of thinking about all this, I'd suggest simply giving open attention to this moment, just as it is. Feel the breeze, hear the traffic sounds, see the clouds and the cars and the trees, without expecting some result, but simply to enjoy them...see the thoughts and stories that come and go for what they are without buying into them...enjoy simply being alive.
What about deep loneliness, Joan? I live alone and do not have many friends who are 'enlightened' - even asked Robert Saltzman if he'd consider some kind of hooking up thing for people who understand what he is talking about. My best friend moved to the other end of the city and we can no longer have regular and frequent visits. Other friends (met doing the est training long ago) have either died, or moved somewhere they can afford to live.
Hi Sharon, I missed this comment before, just finding it now. I talk to many people who don't have anyone in their lives with a shared interest in spirituality/nonduality/meditation or any of this, so you're not alone in that. I think being more alone often comes with aging--old friends move away or die, it's not as easy to make new friends, maybe you no longer find yourself drawn to the kinds of activities where once you would have met new people...and if there is a spiritually-oriented group of some kind near you (a Zen Center or whatever it might be), it isn't the flavor you resonate with. Luckily, there are more and more things online now, but that's not the same as in-person flesh-and-blood friendships. And especially for those who live alone and don't have family, loneliness to some degree may be an unavoidable part of the aging process. I feel it sometimes too. But I also notice that just feeling it as sensation in the body and not getting caught up in the storylines about it is immensely helpful, as is going for a walk seeing the hummingbirds and flickers you describe in your other comment, and being grateful for all the many blessings we do have. I wish you all the best.
Thank you Joan. What you say is all accurate. I do have family....two sons. One lives elsewhere...anyhow yes. There is a Shambala place but it's not my thing - too dogmatic for me. Tried going but felt no connection. I think animals (birds, etc. ) are the way to go, in my life at this point. That and plants. The job I have - I've been there for 13 years which is the longest ever...I hear "you are still working?" quite a bit. Haha. But yeah - it's a social/fellowship thing for me, and the recent problems have really got me twisted up. Totally caught up in the story lines.....thank you again.
Thanks Joan. I just find these types of pointers less beneficial because there is always something that we need to see even if it is already here ( like you say "an obstacle" ). And for most people it is probably a process and not a one time light bulb moment. I think that you mentioned in your talk with Sam Harris that you had multiple insights along the way , and that speaks to me much more than the "there is nothing to get" pointer. In any case thanks for your sharing your insights!
I always say, go with what works for you. It's really impossible to talk about this subject, because nothing we say is ever quite right. On the one hand, there is no end to awakening in the sense of seeing through delusion and potentially discovering new depths or even new perspectives. But the key point to realize is that it only ever happens NOW. There IS only Now. This is the single biggest thing to get.
As soon as you notice the mind thinking about some future awakening, or thinking that "this isn't it" or "I don't have it yet," this can become a kind of dharma bell waking you up to the fact that you are believing a story. Because it's never about the future, and this IS it, and the "you" who imagines you don't get it is a mental image, an idea.
You are already present and aware. You can't not be present and aware. And present experiencing is happening all by itself. You don't need to "do" anything to make it happen. The only problem is that thought is telling a story that is being believed as fact, a thought about "me" and past and future.
And so, we have meditation and spiritual teachings and silent retreats and teachers and various ways of helping us to see this, and we learn to shift attention from being lost in these kinds of thoughts to "being here now," in the sense of being fully present to the bare sensations of this moment: hearing, seeing, breathing, etc. We learn to catch the thoughts and see that they are only thoughts.
And then, yes, there is an apparent process over time--but only when we think about it after the fact. But yes, there is forgetting and remembering, being swept away again in the thought-stories and waking up again. And that is a lifelong, present moment journey. But we aren't ever really going anywhere because here we are!
And one of the stories is that there is "me" at the center of all this, "me" who is getting it or not getting it, finding it and losing it. But if we look for that "me," can we find anything? It gets ever-more clear that these are stories and not objective reports on reality as it seemed they were.
It's not about some final finish-line. It's always about NOW. Right now, before you start thinking about it, there is no "me" and no problem -- there is just hearing, seeing, breathing, awaring, being. Simple, simple, simple. Then thought comes in and makes it seem very complicated. And we can begin to SEE how that happens and not bite the hook.
Thank you, Ido for sharing what you feel about the pointers. I feel very similarly. For me, the 'here and now' is such a cliched expression these days in pop culture and it has lost it's luster for me to the point of getting annoyed with it. It perhaps woke people and still does to some. But for me, I need a different pointing instruction. The title of this post(one-bottomless-moment) is a better pointer for me. This moment has everything in it. All space and all time. There is no specific here and now. Here and now is everything, everywhere and all at once. Who knows? Perhaps like in the movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxN1T1uxQ2g
One bottomless moment is another word for NOW, the ever-present timeless presence, which is the only eternity. HERE doesn't mean Chicago or New York--it means this immediacy, this present-ness, this one bottomless moment that is where we always are. There is an experiential difference between the kind of open aware presence that is called "being here now" (or "being in the zone"), and being lost in self-centered thinking about past and future. But it all happens Here-Now. There is no place else. The pointers are just words. What matters is what is being pointed out. The mind loves to get bogged down in the words.
Thank you Joan. I still don't get what is all the seeking pointers and giving pointers is all about. What is open aware presence? If it is what I understand it to be.... doesn't everyone already have an experience of open aware presence at least few times a day or when they are falling asleep? Perhaps I'm missing something here because seems like there is more to it than just relaxing and easing up. Is there?
Open aware presence is always here. We could also call it simply present experiencing. But attention is often focused on our ideas about here and now, our thoughts and stories, our efforts to figure this all out, the sense of being separate and needing to get something. So we overlook what is clear and obvious and never actually not here.
I am not quite 76 years old.....still working part time and also volunteering. I got in 'trouble' on Friday. Basically gaslighting stuff. Haven't been this reactivated for a long time. The "pit of the stomach' thing . Looking back at my 'working' career, I have almost always gotten in trouble for being 'myself' - playful, inquiring, deep, super sensitive, etc. Just wanted to share that. So your post was well timed. I need to surrender and accept the feelings so that I can move on. Plus take action (I've consulted with my lawyer friend) so that I don't collapse and wallow in self-pity ;-)
I have been in my 1927 built house since 1975 - such a long time. And boy am I attached to it. So I do worry about 'having to leave' etc. However yesterday I got to watch a flicker (kind of like a woodpecker) sip water from the bird bath, then jump in and bathe himself. I get to see hummingbirds who come within a foot of my head when I am on the porch. My garden is full of food and flowers...it's like a wistful sadness has come upon me....sadness for the natural world, the innocent animals and insects. But unlike John who commented - I do want to keep living....
Thank you for the precious reminder that things coexist at the same time: "Both of these dimensions or perspectives co-exist in our human lives" — This is always a trap for me: wanting to be fully one or the other. And a good strategy is to ask the question you pose:
"Go right into the very core of any one of them and what do you find?" that helps to get out of one dimension and notice the other and then perhaps being aware of both. Lately I have these clear views of what you call "out there" in the sense that the out there is so real that we always feel we need more, better, improved standards of it. It is clear that it is just "out there" like a projection and sharp outlined something. There is a kind of feeling of acceleration and wanting to "go". When it so happens, I also feel the pull back from that going and just staying where I am at and looking and going right into the very core. Hard to explain. Keep writing - I enjoy all of it. Thank you for your caring.
I spent so much of this life trying to become a somebody until I learned from non-dualism I needed to become I nobody. (Turns out, it was the exact same struggle.)
Cheers for the piece, Joan. I love that it spawned a chat about right-to-die. According to genetics, unless something else intervenes, this body-mind could last painfully longer than would be preferred (read: affordable). So I think about this often, even at the young age of 49.
Loved this post and all the comments. Being 75 myself I can definitely relate. I am an alcoholic ( forgive the generalized label ) and have not had a drink for forty five years. My particular death fantasy is that when I get the fatal diagnosis I am going to start drinking myself to death very slowly so.I can enjoy it lol. Since we actually have no control who knows if that’s the way it will happen. But the fantasy has kept me away from the booze for forty five years lol. One more comment. You mentioned Douglas Harding. His exercises have had the most profound effect on me. I had this insight before I stopped drinking which probably contributed to my stopping. I’m often surprised that his teaching is not mentioned often or even pointed to by many “teachers”. His exercises point directly to PRESENCE HERE NOW which is always HERE NOW.
Before interpretation and analysis, as you say, there is only what is.
We do need to interpret and analyse, of course - but being aware of that which is, at times, before we start to do this does put the whole process and its applicability into context. Just Presence. Pre-interpretation awareness has no characteristics that we can describe....any description attempted is, by its nature, the beginning of retrospective interpretation. Your writing resonates powerfully Joan....it is a valuable gift, in my opinion. Thank you.
Thank you.
I am also 76 years old, and I have a pretty good life: fairly good health, enough of everything, satisfying relationships, and interesting days. I don't think I will regret not having done anything else with my life if I should ponder this on my deathbed, so there is no particular agenda remaining. I am content with each day.
However, I am aware that in the life of most human beings things begin to become tougher physically after 80 and the probability of the occurrence of some debilitating and/or painful condition increases exponentially.
So I was wondering: why not go out on a high note, say at 80 - if I should make it that far - rather than wait for that diagnosis of doom, or a stroke or a wheelchair? Why not leave some money for my family and friends rather than using it for palliative care for myself? Or, if I should run out of funds, why put them in the position of perhaps having to pay for the care of a dying body?
So why not gradually start ending what has been a challenging but also a very interesting life, and say goodbye to it all during my 80th year? Everyone will have had a fair warning and will hopefully be at peace with my end.
I have discussed this with some of my friends and I was pleasantly surprised that some of them did not reject my plan out of hand. So I would be very grateful to hear your opinion too.
Of course all of this is predicated on the idea that I am (in) this body, which from the nondual perspective is a fantasy, but could it be that the whole is generating this intention, and that it is not necessarily an ego-centered issue?
Many thanks.
Hi John- I understand your calculus- I have the same thoughts. In reading your post, the thought occurred that not wanting to live a less ambulatory life is also a refusal of “what is” present or coming. Welcoming even this stage might be a great teaching for you and others. Thank you for writing so honestly-
🙏
Hi Billie, I mentioned and commented on your comment in my reply to John below. I agree that being incapacitated, maybe especially for someone whose self-image is very much about being independent, in control and self-reliant, can be a great lesson in interdependence, humility, acceptance, surrender, grace and love. And while being a caretaker of an incapacitated friend, partner or family member can be a huge burden, it can also be an enormous gift. In my case, I'm very grateful my mother lived into her 90s and that I got to be with her in those last years. It was a gift. But at the same time, I would fully support anyone who chooses to end their life for the reasons John describes, and I wish it were legal to do so here in the US in the way it is in Canada now.
Thank you very much for your perspective Billie.
Yes, as I pondered this issue I had to agree with you that I could just be wanting to avoid "what is" and in the process be denying myself an opportunity to grow psychologically/spiritually - if that can be said to be the purpose of a human life.
However, not knowing the purpose of human life I could not come to a conclusion.
But sticking with that view for now, I wondered if maybe my premature death might deprive others of opportunities for growth? That is possible, so maybe I should stick around, for their sake.
However, I then thought: what if my demise might be a stimulus for the growth of others, for instance my only sibling who is close to me and I think would find my absence challenging. Might she not find that she grows as a result of being "abandoned."?
I could not come to any clear conclusions on these matters, however, which is why I am asking for other opinions. Thank you again for yours.🙏
Hi. Provocative post! I am 73 and definitely would want to end things if I get a terminal diagnosis of any kind. However, your idea of making an appointment with death really unnerved me. I think I would see a book-end to my life where presently there isn't one, and I'd be counting down the years and days until the big farewell. Maybe it's something we just surrender to and let nature take its course? Accepting the mystery of how our lives and death will unfold? I'm not sure, but it seems that as long as I am well and conscious, life wants to keep on keepin' on. I look forward to Joan's sage words on this.
I'm a so far, quite healthy 75 and I also feel the apprehension that you do, but as a survivor of a parental suicide, I recoil from the very idea at a visceral level. After my father's death, my mother began researching near death experiences to find reports that attempted suicides experienced a powerful sense of disapproval. She was tormented by this because she felt my father was in particular need of compassion, as is everyone bereft enough to end their own life. All that we take from this life is our actions, and ending any life is a burden I'd be loathe to carry.
Toni Packer had experienced a number of close family members and one student committing or attempting suicide, and I suspect that this, along with her sense of responsibility to the Center she had founded, kept her from ending her own life, the last 10 years of which were lived in increasing pain and disability and eventually being bedridden for the last few years. So I can hear your concerns. But I think it's also possible for someone, at least in some circumstances, to do this in a way that those left behind can understand and accept and even feel supportive and positive about it. I've seen examples of that as well. Years before she died, maybe in her 70s, my mother asked me if I would help her fast to death one day if it became necessary, and I said yes. It turned out not to be needed. I personally have no belief at all in some kind of post-death disapproval of suicide. That sounds like fear-based superstition to me.
I would not in any way disapprove if you did this, I'd understand completely, and I have considered it myself, although I'd be more likely to do this in the face of a diagnosis such as Alzheimer's or a condition that would force me into a nursing home. I think our culture's obsession with living as long as possible, fearing death, and prolonging life at all costs is absurd. We are kinder to our animal companions in this regard.
But I also understand Billie Lynn's response to your comment. I know many quadriplegics living wonderful and fulfilling lives, and anyone imagining the life of Helen Keller would be surprised to read her writings...or Jacques Lusseyran who wrote And There Was Light...and I know from my own life that this is true. So I think we each have to trust that we will know what to do, and that there is no one right answer to these questions.
I recommend Lionel Shriver's wonderful novel, Should We Stay or Should We Go, examining the possibilities. Also Katy Butler's book Knocking on Heaven's Door about the end of life journey of her father. Both books are described on my website recommended books page (https://www.joantollifson.com/recommend.html), as is And There Was Light. Also the old great movie, Harold and Maud, in which Maud does exactly this. And I discuss physican-assisted dying in my most recent book, DEATH: The End of Self-Improvement. I've written several articles as well in support of our right to die in a medically reliable and comfortable way at the time of our own choosing, and this is now available in Canada.
I can see that several more people have replied to your comment while I've been typing, so I will end here and read those.
I am so grateful for your response Joan. It is a great relief to me since I share your view that our culture's obsession with squeezing the last minute out of life is absurd, and even unkind.
And thank you for your many helpful suggestions for further exploration.
I find much comfort in the idea that we can each trust that we will know what to do when the times comes to do it, or not.
All blessings to you.
Hey John - really interesting discussion you've given birth to there!
I think that we can only respond skilfully to the circumstances of the moment - although of course that response will inevitably be conditioned in part by memories of the past and thoughts of a future, and the beliefs we acquire and modify along the way. There is, I think, no absolute right or wrong that applies in all situations, and whatever we do in the moment is, by definition, what we need to do in that moment. Thank you.
Hi Stephen -
Yes, I agree with you entirely, and your sentiments echo what I thought was a fine piece of common-sense advice from a friend of mine: she said, "Why not wait for a diagnosis?"
That made much sense to me and I am now more aware that I was trying to pre-empt things because I am so fearful of future suffering.
But who is to say if that suffering will even happen? I might kick the bucket in my sleep, or maybe the suffering will be alleviated effectively by drugs. Who knows?
So I have put this issue on the back-burner for a while where I hope it will percolate away and bring greater clarity.
In the meanwhile discussions like these and comments like yours help light the way, thank you very much.
You are most welcome, brother. Keep that friend close - she sounds wise!
Enjoy your day.
John, you feel like a kindred spirit to me. Thank you for bringing up this discussion on this mostly tabooed and outlawed subject. I too would chime in like several others have pointed out that I would make it some external trigger(such as a quality-of-life eroding diagnosis) driven rather than a number(80) driven decision. I'm a nonduality newbie. When I bring up the same question, some nondual oriented friends of mine tell me 'Are you in the here and now? Why are you planning for some unknown future? You'll take the appropriate call when the time comes'. That response doesn't resonate with me. I like to foresee and plan. Of course I understand the future can spring all sorts of surprises and derail my plans but I still want to think and have a plan of action for future. Thank you again for bringing up this subject here.
Good to read your comments, thank you Vijay.
Yes, I am also one of those who plans and hopes for the best.
I don't think the nondual teachers I know would discourage planning, and as you say the future will have the final word. ;-)
I would be happy to learn more about your non-dual perspectives with regards to planning. What level of planning is optimal/functional and what level of planning is considered obsessive? Perhaps it isn't even about planning/non-planning but what sort of mindfulnesss/presence you bring in to the process of planning? I tend to get confused applying the non dual teaching because I'm not really sure if I'm getting what the teachers are trying to communicate.
Vijay, if you want to have an extended conversation with John about planning and his thoughts about it, I suggest you do so by messaging him on Substack chat. From my perspective, you are over-thinking everything, Vijay. Planning is fine. We need to make plans. Attachment to outcomes is where we suffer. We can plan a vacation or our retirement or tonight's dinner, and that's fine, but they may not turn out as planned. Can we roll with how it is when it doesn't go as planned? And if planning becomes obsessive, can we notice that and maybe relax into not knowing what's going to happen?
Hi Joan, Thank you for the feedback. I don't really seem to have a control on my level of thinking and analyzing. My mind is seeking for an understanding. How do I drop the seeking? How do I know the planning has become obsessive? The process of planning is enjoyable for me. So, I don't tend to agree that I'm obsessive.
You're not hearing anything I say. End of discussion.
Hi again Vijay, I wish I felt equipped to answer your question. If you find planning enjoyable there seems to be no problem.
I also find it enjoyable up to a point, but I find that I sometimes use it as a distraction from uncomfortable feelings that are coming up. One can only judge this for oneself.
I am unfortunately not able to have a longer discussion, due to health reasons. I hope you will not take it personally. You seem to be a keen seeker and it is exciting to see how you are questioning yourself and others, wonderful!
I would suggest that you find a teacher with whom you feel you can connect in order to take your inquiry deeper.
A good teacher knows how to judge the perspective from which you are coming and thus provide the appropriate guidance. Their answers and recommendations will depend entirely on that and will sometimes differ dramatically from seeker to seeker. Even the Buddha fashioned his teachings for individuals.
I wish you well. If you are new to these teachings, as I think you said, it might be wise to listen a lot and speak little, for now. Let the teachings soak in over time, be gentle with yourself, and apply patience - lots of it - and things will begin to fall into place. Blessings to you.
I understand, John.
I hope your health improves. Lots of love to you.
Thank you for your understanding, Vijay.
Love to you too.
John, Your last paragraph is great advice for Vijay: "If you are new to these teachings, as I think you said, it might be wise to listen a lot and speak little, for now. Let the teachings soak in over time, be gentle with yourself, and apply patience - lots of it - and things will begin to fall into place. Blessings to you."
I'm not inclined to agree that "A good teacher knows how to judge the perspective from which you are coming and thus provide the appropriate guidance." I try to dissuade people who come to me from imagining that I know what they need. As I say on the page of my website about individual meetings: "Joan meets you with no agenda, not knowing what will happen. In her view, all of us are inseparable, choiceless movements of this inconceivable, indivisible, seamless, boundless presence, exploring and discovering together as one whole happening. Each of us is a unique expression, and no one knows what anyone else needs, but we can look and listen together and see what emerges."
I've had some wonderful teachers, so I'm not against teachers. Just the notion that they have magical powers or that they know what you need. They do their best, and sometimes it hits the target and sometimes it misses.
I wish you well with your health issue, whatever it may be. I'm currently experiencing a great deal of back pain, so I can empathize with the effects.
I do hope you will read Lionel Shriver's Should we Stay or Should We Go, as I think you'd enjoy it.
Thank you for the clarification Joan.
I am sorry that you did not check with me what I had meant. I certainly did not mean, or say, that teachers have magical powers, but I can see that what I had said might be interpreted as meaning that teachers do know what students need.
What I meant was that a good teacher, because they have walked the hard road, knows some of the pitfalls and has the openness and sensitivity to feel where a questioner is coming from and has the openness to let the answers speak through them, which is why I pointed out to Vijay that the Buddha, for instance, tailored his answers to accord with the point of view of the questioner. He met people where they were and did not speak over their heads when they weren't able to hear him, though on occasion he did challenge them too, as you do.
So I don't see how that conflicts with your view, but it is possible that I misunderstand it.
Thank you for reminding me of Shriver's book, and thank you for your good wishes. I'll send golden light for your painful back - it's part of my practice ;-)
John, I just stumbled on this article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/medical-aid-dying-aging-parents_n_668e93b3e4b0c45d1910e732
all appearing and disappearing simultaneously ...it's the timeless miracle 💕
Hi Joan,
You say "Ramana wasn’t telling people to get to some better place or to imagine that he had something they didn’t." But the fact is, that the "right here right now" message is so difficult for most people to get , that it still creates a difference between those who "get it" and those who don't. Even if there is nothing to get and it's all prefect right now, the fact that I don't get it still puts me in the same place. Do you see my point?
Thanks,
Ido
Ido, I get what you are saying and I hope Joan responds. As difficult as it is I then try to "enter the now" from there - wherever I am in this moment...not resisting...allowing what is to be...not a practice for the feint of heart. 😍 Your question/comment was most helpful to me. Thank you. Sending Love, Tom
wow - is it the "feint" of heart? I always thought it was faint which does not make sense. It is good to learn something new every day ;-)
Sharon, I stand corrected! You are right, it is "faint of heart." LOL Let's hear it for Google searches! Live, Tom ❤️
That is hilarious Tom. I hope you meant Love and not Live - but either way - both are true. ;-)
Do you take photos of owls?
Faint of heart...is what expresses the notion of 'insufficient courage or fortitude' for a given challemge.
Perhaps the spelling used was intenrional...but if so, I do not understand the meaning.
I see exactly what you mean. I think it becomes very difficult when our experience involves pain that we would do anything to escape. I had some PTSD that resulted in a lengthy episode of clinical depression followed up by an anxiety disorder that I've spent a lot of time sitting with. Living this life requires that we be very compassionate and patient with whatever it is we, and the people we love experience.
Life includes pain, physical and emotional. I'm currently having very bad back pain. I went through a very painful cancer treatment some years ago. My fingerbiting compulsion, which has recently disappeared, was very painful. I've had extended episodes of depression and I still have dark moods at times. I don't have a right hand, I was gay back when that was really hard, and I nearly died from alcohol addiction. I've felt grief and sorrow and outrage at many times in my life. And I have had a very lucky life. I had loving parents, I've had enough money to be comfortable, I'm not living in a war zone, and I'm in pretty good health for my age. So many endure far worse. And yes, this is where it gets challenging, when life gets hard, as it always does. But all those experiences have enriched me. Somehow, it seems we need the grit that creates the pearl.
Yes, indeed there is an apparent difference. You actually do "get it" because here it is, here you are, right here, right now. The only apparent obstacle is the belief that "this isn't it" and "I don't get it." And even that is simply the way THIS is presently showing up. You can't not be here now, present and aware. It's always already the case. Just SEE that the apparent problem is nothing but thoughts and stories about a "me" who isn't really there in the way we think. Instead of thinking about all this, I'd suggest simply giving open attention to this moment, just as it is. Feel the breeze, hear the traffic sounds, see the clouds and the cars and the trees, without expecting some result, but simply to enjoy them...see the thoughts and stories that come and go for what they are without buying into them...enjoy simply being alive.
What about deep loneliness, Joan? I live alone and do not have many friends who are 'enlightened' - even asked Robert Saltzman if he'd consider some kind of hooking up thing for people who understand what he is talking about. My best friend moved to the other end of the city and we can no longer have regular and frequent visits. Other friends (met doing the est training long ago) have either died, or moved somewhere they can afford to live.
Hi Sharon, I missed this comment before, just finding it now. I talk to many people who don't have anyone in their lives with a shared interest in spirituality/nonduality/meditation or any of this, so you're not alone in that. I think being more alone often comes with aging--old friends move away or die, it's not as easy to make new friends, maybe you no longer find yourself drawn to the kinds of activities where once you would have met new people...and if there is a spiritually-oriented group of some kind near you (a Zen Center or whatever it might be), it isn't the flavor you resonate with. Luckily, there are more and more things online now, but that's not the same as in-person flesh-and-blood friendships. And especially for those who live alone and don't have family, loneliness to some degree may be an unavoidable part of the aging process. I feel it sometimes too. But I also notice that just feeling it as sensation in the body and not getting caught up in the storylines about it is immensely helpful, as is going for a walk seeing the hummingbirds and flickers you describe in your other comment, and being grateful for all the many blessings we do have. I wish you all the best.
Thank you Joan. What you say is all accurate. I do have family....two sons. One lives elsewhere...anyhow yes. There is a Shambala place but it's not my thing - too dogmatic for me. Tried going but felt no connection. I think animals (birds, etc. ) are the way to go, in my life at this point. That and plants. The job I have - I've been there for 13 years which is the longest ever...I hear "you are still working?" quite a bit. Haha. But yeah - it's a social/fellowship thing for me, and the recent problems have really got me twisted up. Totally caught up in the story lines.....thank you again.
Thanks Joan. I just find these types of pointers less beneficial because there is always something that we need to see even if it is already here ( like you say "an obstacle" ). And for most people it is probably a process and not a one time light bulb moment. I think that you mentioned in your talk with Sam Harris that you had multiple insights along the way , and that speaks to me much more than the "there is nothing to get" pointer. In any case thanks for your sharing your insights!
I always say, go with what works for you. It's really impossible to talk about this subject, because nothing we say is ever quite right. On the one hand, there is no end to awakening in the sense of seeing through delusion and potentially discovering new depths or even new perspectives. But the key point to realize is that it only ever happens NOW. There IS only Now. This is the single biggest thing to get.
As soon as you notice the mind thinking about some future awakening, or thinking that "this isn't it" or "I don't have it yet," this can become a kind of dharma bell waking you up to the fact that you are believing a story. Because it's never about the future, and this IS it, and the "you" who imagines you don't get it is a mental image, an idea.
You are already present and aware. You can't not be present and aware. And present experiencing is happening all by itself. You don't need to "do" anything to make it happen. The only problem is that thought is telling a story that is being believed as fact, a thought about "me" and past and future.
And so, we have meditation and spiritual teachings and silent retreats and teachers and various ways of helping us to see this, and we learn to shift attention from being lost in these kinds of thoughts to "being here now," in the sense of being fully present to the bare sensations of this moment: hearing, seeing, breathing, etc. We learn to catch the thoughts and see that they are only thoughts.
And then, yes, there is an apparent process over time--but only when we think about it after the fact. But yes, there is forgetting and remembering, being swept away again in the thought-stories and waking up again. And that is a lifelong, present moment journey. But we aren't ever really going anywhere because here we are!
And one of the stories is that there is "me" at the center of all this, "me" who is getting it or not getting it, finding it and losing it. But if we look for that "me," can we find anything? It gets ever-more clear that these are stories and not objective reports on reality as it seemed they were.
It's not about some final finish-line. It's always about NOW. Right now, before you start thinking about it, there is no "me" and no problem -- there is just hearing, seeing, breathing, awaring, being. Simple, simple, simple. Then thought comes in and makes it seem very complicated. And we can begin to SEE how that happens and not bite the hook.
Anyway, wishing you all the best. 🙏
Thanks again Joan
Thank you, Ido for sharing what you feel about the pointers. I feel very similarly. For me, the 'here and now' is such a cliched expression these days in pop culture and it has lost it's luster for me to the point of getting annoyed with it. It perhaps woke people and still does to some. But for me, I need a different pointing instruction. The title of this post(one-bottomless-moment) is a better pointer for me. This moment has everything in it. All space and all time. There is no specific here and now. Here and now is everything, everywhere and all at once. Who knows? Perhaps like in the movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxN1T1uxQ2g
One bottomless moment is another word for NOW, the ever-present timeless presence, which is the only eternity. HERE doesn't mean Chicago or New York--it means this immediacy, this present-ness, this one bottomless moment that is where we always are. There is an experiential difference between the kind of open aware presence that is called "being here now" (or "being in the zone"), and being lost in self-centered thinking about past and future. But it all happens Here-Now. There is no place else. The pointers are just words. What matters is what is being pointed out. The mind loves to get bogged down in the words.
Thank you Joan. I still don't get what is all the seeking pointers and giving pointers is all about. What is open aware presence? If it is what I understand it to be.... doesn't everyone already have an experience of open aware presence at least few times a day or when they are falling asleep? Perhaps I'm missing something here because seems like there is more to it than just relaxing and easing up. Is there?
Open aware presence is always here. We could also call it simply present experiencing. But attention is often focused on our ideas about here and now, our thoughts and stories, our efforts to figure this all out, the sense of being separate and needing to get something. So we overlook what is clear and obvious and never actually not here.
I am not quite 76 years old.....still working part time and also volunteering. I got in 'trouble' on Friday. Basically gaslighting stuff. Haven't been this reactivated for a long time. The "pit of the stomach' thing . Looking back at my 'working' career, I have almost always gotten in trouble for being 'myself' - playful, inquiring, deep, super sensitive, etc. Just wanted to share that. So your post was well timed. I need to surrender and accept the feelings so that I can move on. Plus take action (I've consulted with my lawyer friend) so that I don't collapse and wallow in self-pity ;-)
I have been in my 1927 built house since 1975 - such a long time. And boy am I attached to it. So I do worry about 'having to leave' etc. However yesterday I got to watch a flicker (kind of like a woodpecker) sip water from the bird bath, then jump in and bathe himself. I get to see hummingbirds who come within a foot of my head when I am on the porch. My garden is full of food and flowers...it's like a wistful sadness has come upon me....sadness for the natural world, the innocent animals and insects. But unlike John who commented - I do want to keep living....
Thank you for the precious reminder that things coexist at the same time: "Both of these dimensions or perspectives co-exist in our human lives" — This is always a trap for me: wanting to be fully one or the other. And a good strategy is to ask the question you pose:
"Go right into the very core of any one of them and what do you find?" that helps to get out of one dimension and notice the other and then perhaps being aware of both. Lately I have these clear views of what you call "out there" in the sense that the out there is so real that we always feel we need more, better, improved standards of it. It is clear that it is just "out there" like a projection and sharp outlined something. There is a kind of feeling of acceleration and wanting to "go". When it so happens, I also feel the pull back from that going and just staying where I am at and looking and going right into the very core. Hard to explain. Keep writing - I enjoy all of it. Thank you for your caring.
Beautiful wisdom here- and deep honesty-
I bow to it all.
Let’s just stay here together as long as possible…breathing.
🙏❤️
Wonderfull, I grow in joy with each needed reminder. Thank you..
I spent so much of this life trying to become a somebody until I learned from non-dualism I needed to become I nobody. (Turns out, it was the exact same struggle.)
Cheers for the piece, Joan. I love that it spawned a chat about right-to-die. According to genetics, unless something else intervenes, this body-mind could last painfully longer than would be preferred (read: affordable). So I think about this often, even at the young age of 49.
Oy!
Loved this post and all the comments. Being 75 myself I can definitely relate. I am an alcoholic ( forgive the generalized label ) and have not had a drink for forty five years. My particular death fantasy is that when I get the fatal diagnosis I am going to start drinking myself to death very slowly so.I can enjoy it lol. Since we actually have no control who knows if that’s the way it will happen. But the fantasy has kept me away from the booze for forty five years lol. One more comment. You mentioned Douglas Harding. His exercises have had the most profound effect on me. I had this insight before I stopped drinking which probably contributed to my stopping. I’m often surprised that his teaching is not mentioned often or even pointed to by many “teachers”. His exercises point directly to PRESENCE HERE NOW which is always HERE NOW.
Thanks Joan…yes “it seems we need the grit that creates the pearl.”
So beautifully said. Through my daily meditation practice, I have become more present in the here and now.. what you say makes so much sense to me.
Another great post Many thanks again Joan.
Go gently and go well 🙏
Before interpretation and analysis, as you say, there is only what is.
We do need to interpret and analyse, of course - but being aware of that which is, at times, before we start to do this does put the whole process and its applicability into context. Just Presence. Pre-interpretation awareness has no characteristics that we can describe....any description attempted is, by its nature, the beginning of retrospective interpretation. Your writing resonates powerfully Joan....it is a valuable gift, in my opinion. Thank you.
Thank you ❤
Thank you ❤