Thank you. I appreciate so much how you curate content and I trust your recommendations. You are generous to strangers and this capacity seems increasingly rare - and necessary.
I remember watching the film "Living Luminaries" some 15 years ago when it was first released which featured this young man's interview with Eckhart. Back then I was a young man myself, who had just experienced an awakening and was struggling to make sense of it and to reorient to the world. I remember marveling at Eckhart's clarity and assimilation of his realization and was mesmerized by the picturesque mountain views surrounding them during the interview and wished I could be where they were and see how he saw...
Fast-forward 15 years and I now have a similar clarity and have assimilated my own realization. To add to that, I live in the same part of the world the interview was held and now behold those same picturesque views on the daily. In other words, what my heart once throbbed for is now my reality.
The kicker: this moment feels no different than it did fifteen years ago. Just as ordinary.
I would say, it's the same Now (the one bottomless moment), and in that sense no different and just as ordinary (and actually, extraordinary when fully realized now). But I'm wondering if feeling confused and wishing you were someplace else feels the same as your present experience of feeling resolved and at home where you are? I'd guess not. So maybe, the same and not the same?
Those feelings were perhaps different. Yet, the feelings were not what I was after. I sensed that if I could experience the kind of freedom (I was admittedly projecting upon Eckhart) my very sense of being would be transformed - enlightened, made into something extraordinary. That isn't the case. The sense of being has not altered one bit. The experience of this moment is what it has always been. Not added to nor subtracted from one bit...
I'm curious, what would the transformation you imagined have been like (when you say your "very sense of being would be transformed," I'm not sure what that meant for you). Does it mean feeling more at peace, more alive, being less confused or less frequently pulled into painful states of mind and behavior, being a more perfect character, always being in some expanded state of consciousness, or what?
When I imagined enlightenment and was seeking it, I imagined it as feeling completely resolved. I would finally be able to just be here, no longer feeling any sense of doubt, lack, deficiency, or uncertainty. I'd be completely settled in presence, undisturbed by whatever happened (never defensive or self-righteous, never having that itching, seeking mind-state in any way). Needless to say, all that hasn't happened, at least not to the degree or in the way I imagined, but what does seem to have shifted is that there is a greater acceptance of all that, not taking it personally when it shows up. I suppose you could say there is less identification as a separate little "me" and a much deeper sense of the boundless presence or wholeness in which all that other stuff comes and goes. And some forms of seeking have certainly dissolved (e.g., I'm no longer seeking final enlightenment or imagining that I am an "unawakened person" -- or an awakened one). There is certainly more clarity about the nature of life and what brings forth suffering and confusion. So in a way, nothing has changed. It's still Now. And yet, a lot has changed. Sometimes the change is so gradual and undramatic that it can go unnoticed. In terms of samsara and nirvana, I find I can't land on either "there is a difference" or "there is no difference." I'm more inclined toward not one, not two. Yes, and. 🙏
The transformation I had envisioned was all of the above ways in which you described (more at peace, more alive etc.) yes, but also becoming something god-like - something invulnerable, imperturbable, something pure and unadulterated, something utterly equanimous, something absolute and uninfluenced by the transient states of mind, emotion and personality.
We had such different experiences with ET, Shiv. I never had a big awakening experience such as you had, which went away, nor have I had the kind of sudden and more or less permanent awakening that ET had either--mine has been much more gradual. For a long time, I was seeking some kind of imaginary future shift that would be magnificent and permanent, and ET was helpful for me in that search falling away. I've never heard him suggest that what happened to him is needed. On the contrary, he always points people to right NOW and tries to show them that looking for enlightenment in the future is one of the many ways to avoid being enlightened right now.
When I first encountered ET, back when the Power of Now first came out, I had already realized everything he was pointing to and embodying so beautifully. (I don't mean I was some enlightened wonder in whom all this was realized--made real--in every moment, only that it had all been discovered). So for me, his books and videos have always been a gentle reminder and a deepening rather than a revelation of something entirely new.
He always came across to me as a very ordinary person with great humility. Because I had lived with two of my teachers and have known quite a few contemporary teachers personally, I have never been inclined to idealize teachers as "beyond it all." So I never imagined that ET was some super-being who never lost his temper or felt defensive. But I do suspect he SEES these things when they happen (it's where he gets the insights he has written about so clearly and that he acts out so humorously in his imitations of the little "me"), and I suspect he doesn't get stuck in these places for long.
Change or no change? Transformation or everything the same? Well...as we discussed on my page in the comments to my post about ET, I would say that in one sense, nothing has changed in all these years. It's still NOW, this one bottomless moment from which we never depart. Aware presence or being is the same. But in another sense, there have been many changes as that has become more clearly realized and as the things that obscure it have been seen through more and more. There is less suffering, greater clarity and ease of being, more acceptance of my own humanity with its inevitable imperfections, no longer seeking enlightenment or perfection--and yet still aspiring to embody and bring forth love rather than more conflict and animosity. And for me, being awake is only NOW. And it's not about me! There are no enlightened people. That is an oxymoron.
Thanks Joan! Off the current topic, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed reading Lionel Shriver's book "Shall we stay or Shall we Go". What a great read and at 70 I supposed I could relate alot more than someone in their 20's but it's food for thought at any age!
Thank you. I appreciate so much how you curate content and I trust your recommendations. You are generous to strangers and this capacity seems increasingly rare - and necessary.
I remember watching the film "Living Luminaries" some 15 years ago when it was first released which featured this young man's interview with Eckhart. Back then I was a young man myself, who had just experienced an awakening and was struggling to make sense of it and to reorient to the world. I remember marveling at Eckhart's clarity and assimilation of his realization and was mesmerized by the picturesque mountain views surrounding them during the interview and wished I could be where they were and see how he saw...
Fast-forward 15 years and I now have a similar clarity and have assimilated my own realization. To add to that, I live in the same part of the world the interview was held and now behold those same picturesque views on the daily. In other words, what my heart once throbbed for is now my reality.
The kicker: this moment feels no different than it did fifteen years ago. Just as ordinary.
I would say, it's the same Now (the one bottomless moment), and in that sense no different and just as ordinary (and actually, extraordinary when fully realized now). But I'm wondering if feeling confused and wishing you were someplace else feels the same as your present experience of feeling resolved and at home where you are? I'd guess not. So maybe, the same and not the same?
Those feelings were perhaps different. Yet, the feelings were not what I was after. I sensed that if I could experience the kind of freedom (I was admittedly projecting upon Eckhart) my very sense of being would be transformed - enlightened, made into something extraordinary. That isn't the case. The sense of being has not altered one bit. The experience of this moment is what it has always been. Not added to nor subtracted from one bit...
I'm curious, what would the transformation you imagined have been like (when you say your "very sense of being would be transformed," I'm not sure what that meant for you). Does it mean feeling more at peace, more alive, being less confused or less frequently pulled into painful states of mind and behavior, being a more perfect character, always being in some expanded state of consciousness, or what?
When I imagined enlightenment and was seeking it, I imagined it as feeling completely resolved. I would finally be able to just be here, no longer feeling any sense of doubt, lack, deficiency, or uncertainty. I'd be completely settled in presence, undisturbed by whatever happened (never defensive or self-righteous, never having that itching, seeking mind-state in any way). Needless to say, all that hasn't happened, at least not to the degree or in the way I imagined, but what does seem to have shifted is that there is a greater acceptance of all that, not taking it personally when it shows up. I suppose you could say there is less identification as a separate little "me" and a much deeper sense of the boundless presence or wholeness in which all that other stuff comes and goes. And some forms of seeking have certainly dissolved (e.g., I'm no longer seeking final enlightenment or imagining that I am an "unawakened person" -- or an awakened one). There is certainly more clarity about the nature of life and what brings forth suffering and confusion. So in a way, nothing has changed. It's still Now. And yet, a lot has changed. Sometimes the change is so gradual and undramatic that it can go unnoticed. In terms of samsara and nirvana, I find I can't land on either "there is a difference" or "there is no difference." I'm more inclined toward not one, not two. Yes, and. 🙏
The transformation I had envisioned was all of the above ways in which you described (more at peace, more alive etc.) yes, but also becoming something god-like - something invulnerable, imperturbable, something pure and unadulterated, something utterly equanimous, something absolute and uninfluenced by the transient states of mind, emotion and personality.
Since you've continued this discussion in a post today on your Substack (https://shivsengupta.substack.com/p/when-dreams-come-true), I will share my comment there on my page here as well:
We had such different experiences with ET, Shiv. I never had a big awakening experience such as you had, which went away, nor have I had the kind of sudden and more or less permanent awakening that ET had either--mine has been much more gradual. For a long time, I was seeking some kind of imaginary future shift that would be magnificent and permanent, and ET was helpful for me in that search falling away. I've never heard him suggest that what happened to him is needed. On the contrary, he always points people to right NOW and tries to show them that looking for enlightenment in the future is one of the many ways to avoid being enlightened right now.
When I first encountered ET, back when the Power of Now first came out, I had already realized everything he was pointing to and embodying so beautifully. (I don't mean I was some enlightened wonder in whom all this was realized--made real--in every moment, only that it had all been discovered). So for me, his books and videos have always been a gentle reminder and a deepening rather than a revelation of something entirely new.
He always came across to me as a very ordinary person with great humility. Because I had lived with two of my teachers and have known quite a few contemporary teachers personally, I have never been inclined to idealize teachers as "beyond it all." So I never imagined that ET was some super-being who never lost his temper or felt defensive. But I do suspect he SEES these things when they happen (it's where he gets the insights he has written about so clearly and that he acts out so humorously in his imitations of the little "me"), and I suspect he doesn't get stuck in these places for long.
Change or no change? Transformation or everything the same? Well...as we discussed on my page in the comments to my post about ET, I would say that in one sense, nothing has changed in all these years. It's still NOW, this one bottomless moment from which we never depart. Aware presence or being is the same. But in another sense, there have been many changes as that has become more clearly realized and as the things that obscure it have been seen through more and more. There is less suffering, greater clarity and ease of being, more acceptance of my own humanity with its inevitable imperfections, no longer seeking enlightenment or perfection--and yet still aspiring to embody and bring forth love rather than more conflict and animosity. And for me, being awake is only NOW. And it's not about me! There are no enlightened people. That is an oxymoron.
Thanks Joan! Off the current topic, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed reading Lionel Shriver's book "Shall we stay or Shall we Go". What a great read and at 70 I supposed I could relate alot more than someone in their 20's but it's food for thought at any age!