I so identify with your first two sentences. All the teachers, all the paths, all the philosophies, and still this mind can't grasp it, and never will. It is the unknowable mystery of being here/now, without seeking, without resisting. Ah, thank you Joan.
Joan, again I want to thank you for your appropriate stress on "don’t know" as an important threshold to cross. For me, saturating myself for decades in all manner of non-dual discourse and scripture was wonderful, very appealing to a hungry seeker's mind, but also addictive and self-perpetuating (personal "self," that is). "Don't know" is the event horizon of awakening, the last glint of body-mind knowledge and the first glimmer of true freedom in what is. Keep on telling it like it is!
I just returned from a retreat with a well known Non-duality teacher and I think I’m ready to drop all the so called “Truth seeking “ and just live my life simply not wanting to discover some ultimate truth and just rest in not knowing
PPS I'm tired of hearing some non-duality teachers repeat that "All psychological suffering is caused by the belief to be a separate person.Drop it and you'll be perfectly happy". We all would do that if we could, right?
Hmmm. I haven't heard anyone say that, although maybe someone has. I may have heard people suggest that all psychological suffering is rooted in the thought-sense of separation, and that if that falls away, all psychological suffering will end. I would say this is true of much, but not all, psychological suffering, because I feel that other factors also play a role (genetics, neurochemistry, hormones, the condition of the brain, various physical illnesses and imbalances, trauma, and so on), and I would never say, "You'll be perfectly happy" at all times, although it may depend on what is meant by happiness. And of course I agree with you that we can't simply drop a belief (or see and feel through the illusion of separation) at will--but then, I haven't heard anyone else suggest that we can, although probably someone has. But in my experience, I have found that we often hear teachings in ways that are not intended--we may hear suggestions or possibilities as commands, for example. It sounds like you may have had a somewhat frustrating or disappointing time at the retreat you were on, eh? 😊
Regarding your earlier comment about being "ready to drop all the so called 'Truth seeking'", in my experience, we can't drop the search at will either (and I didn't hear you suggesting that we could). As one teacher (I think it was Wayne Liquorman) put it, "seeking is like having sex with a 900 pound gorilla--you're not done until the gorilla is done." 😂 In my experience, seeking falls away, whether temporarily or permanently, when it is realized that what we are seeking is right here, that it's actually very simple, not exotic. Truly resting in not knowing just might be Ultimate Truth. Of course, it depends on what we mean by "not knowing"--and I think I just might feel my next Substack article coming on.... 😎
Thank you for this answer Joan. Yes, the teacher was Francis Lucille and it was very difficult for me.There was much talking about how we must realize that we are not a man or woman but we are consciousness. I’m not there yet. I’ve been seeking for 40 years mostly practicing Vipassana and Zen and feeling tired.Hoping for grace😂
Francis once said, everything is grace when we see it as grace. Including exhaustion. I've never really resonated with the notion that we are not a man or woman or a person. I prefer to say, that's not all we are, and the more closely we look at the person or the bodymind or the personality, the less solid and substantial and separate from everything else we find it all to be. But in everyday life, of course we are a person, and we have a personality (certain tendencies and ways of being) and an age and a gender and all of that. We couldn't function if we lost all sense of location and boundaries, or if we couldn't remember our name or discern the difference between our fingers and the carrot we are cutting up. But none of that is the problematic or illusory aspect that spirituality speaks of transcending. You know this.
And I would say, don't get hung up on the word consciousness. It simply points to the undeniable sense of being here, present and aware, without which (and outside of which) nothing can appear. In that sense, it's all there is. People debate whether or not there is a physical reality outside of consciousness, but how would we know one way or the other? Everything we see and think appears in consciousness (this aware presence). In that sense, it's all there is, and we are that.
But as you know, no way of expressing this is ever entirely perfect, because it can't really be captured by words. Our confusion is always in thinking, isn't it? Being here, being this present experiencing, is not confusing at all. It is effortlessly present. Unavoidable really. But then we start trying to figure it out, and we compare one teaching to another, and we wonder if we're really getting it, and we compare ourselves to others and seem to come up short, and next thing we know, we're confused and frustrated and exhausted. Vipassana and Zen are great ways of discovering how this happens, and also of waking up to the simplicity of here-now-being. We imagine being lost and confused. Anyway, much love to you. Rest up and have confidence in your own seeing...not your thinking...but the seeing that is right here. ❤️
Thank you. You express my predicament so clearly, much better than I could! I need to trust myself more and not look for answers outside. Yes, for me it makes more sense to say I am not only this body, these thoughts and feelings and perceptions. What we truly and deeply are is a mystery. The mind struggles but perhaps the heart can open to the full catastrophe of life and living. I’m deeply grateful for your replies. Sometime I’d like to meet again on Zoom.❤️
For what it's worth. Thoughts are relentless. I meditate about 45 minutes in the mornings. I walk away clear, calm, awake, and just do the next thing that comes to mind. 2 to 3 hours later. I am aware that I have let the thoughts slowly shuffle in. 5 hours later, I am the same recovering jerk I was before the meditation.
And yet, as I suspect you see, all of this is a story, nothing but thoughts, however relatively true that story seems, and it turns a lived experiencing that is actually very fluid and impermanent and ungraspable and never the same way twice into some-thing seemingly solid and predictable--and it reincarnates (in the imagination) the imaginary self, the "same recovering jerk I was before," and the body hums along with the story, further reinforcing it. Thoughts about thoughts. And all of it completely imaginary!
Some people report an almost completely silent mind most of the time. Others tell me they never have a moment without thoughts, although I suspect they do, however brief or unnoticed. In my experience (here's another story), thinking can go on even during meditation, and that's okay. No need to fight it or judge it, give it meaning or take it personally. It's all happening in the bigger silence. The whole notion of a "good meditation" and a "bad meditation" falls away and there is simply what is, as it is. And naturally, sitting in silence doing nothing or being on a silent retreat will be a different experience from daily life with all the responsibilities, relationships, emails, texts, phone calls, etc.
And what are thoughts when we look closely? Little energetic blips that are gone before they arrive, and yet they have this amazing magical capacity to unfold entire narratives and belief systems in the imagination, and create the seemingly solid, separate "me," the thinker. But when we look, no thinker can be found. It all vanishes into thin air. 🙏
Yes. Yes. Yes. You get the triple yes! Thank you for giving me your attention. I certainly feel the healing energy that is coming through your care. Oh, Joan... you are the voice of the Spirit that nurtures my heart and soul.
In order to provide some context, or to paraphrase some of your words, reincarnate the imaginary self for a few paragraphs, or simply, to tell some of my story:
I have been practicing and periodically teaching meditation for the past ten years. In 2015-2019, I maintained a consistent private practice of meditating 3-45 minute sets per day (not including meditating with others). The intent was to achieve 10K hours of meditation time over the next 15 years, so that I could comfortably describe myself as a "veteran meditator." It was a most peaceful time in my life. I can't say I have had a "bad" meditation. I tell people who ask about my practice that, "as a vehicle for removing stress, it works every time." It is the shortest distance from where I am, to peace. I love who I have become after the meditation. Even if the meditation did not go as expected. (Which is the definition of a "bad meditation.")
I eventually stopped tracking my meditation hours because I began see it as an act of arrogance. Once the journey became void of a destination the opportunities became limitless. I now practice 45 minutes after I awaken (usually around 4:30am), and get in 1 or 2 , 15 minute sessions after noon. Please forgive me, I know I am covering ground that is quite familiar to you.- A few of the thousand beautiful things I learned on this journey was:
1. Thought commotion does eventually re-appear after the meditations, providing structure and depth to my imaginary egoic self but, I find that I have become much more of an objective witness to my suggestive thoughts, even in times of commotion. They no longer have the allure they once did.
2. During and after the meditations my energy level is off the charts. Especially in group meds. where the "zone" is so easily attainable. Imagine, being on fire to learn everything about this "unknowable" gift. I continue to fall in love, over, and over again with the gift of breath, the gift of life. I will continue to reach for metaphors just beyond my grasp to seat a language that attempts to say the unsayable. And I feel no want to stop it. It is all so beautiful, spiritual, painful, deep, and marvelous. I feel the energy pulsing through my fingers even as I write these words.
3. I do not, nor will I ever have, the answers to each question put before me, unless the answer is, "I don't know." (Those three words are so honest, profound, freeing, and life giving on some occasions.)
During the meditations, once the breath has become calmed and even paced, and the dwindling thoughts dance in slow motion solo minuets, the intervals between them becoming more spacious in each sequence, and the realization that, "It is all happening in the bigger silence" has begun- the need to know disappears, and all these words become quite unnecessary.
Oct 1, 2023·edited Oct 2, 2023Liked by Joan Tollifson
Yes! "It’s always just this! Ungraspable yet vividly right here." I'm less and less interested in grasping for "answers" and more and more blown away by whatever It is -- without trying to know what It is.
"It’s always just this!" Of course. I wish you could see me smiling. Maybe if I concentrate and focus on your spirit in the present, you will feel my smile. Calm... neutral... contented... smile. Peace always wise one.
I so identify with your first two sentences. All the teachers, all the paths, all the philosophies, and still this mind can't grasp it, and never will. It is the unknowable mystery of being here/now, without seeking, without resisting. Ah, thank you Joan.
I like it, as it is. Thss as ni you
I love you! Sat Nam on the precious moment if your share on this day! Thank you! Love, Karuna LightonKundalini.com
Joan, again I want to thank you for your appropriate stress on "don’t know" as an important threshold to cross. For me, saturating myself for decades in all manner of non-dual discourse and scripture was wonderful, very appealing to a hungry seeker's mind, but also addictive and self-perpetuating (personal "self," that is). "Don't know" is the event horizon of awakening, the last glint of body-mind knowledge and the first glimmer of true freedom in what is. Keep on telling it like it is!
THIS is It, nothing(more) to figure out or to achieve❣🙏
I just returned from a retreat with a well known Non-duality teacher and I think I’m ready to drop all the so called “Truth seeking “ and just live my life simply not wanting to discover some ultimate truth and just rest in not knowing
See reply in my reply to your PPS below.
P.S. Your post appears just at the right moment, always!
PPS I'm tired of hearing some non-duality teachers repeat that "All psychological suffering is caused by the belief to be a separate person.Drop it and you'll be perfectly happy". We all would do that if we could, right?
Hmmm. I haven't heard anyone say that, although maybe someone has. I may have heard people suggest that all psychological suffering is rooted in the thought-sense of separation, and that if that falls away, all psychological suffering will end. I would say this is true of much, but not all, psychological suffering, because I feel that other factors also play a role (genetics, neurochemistry, hormones, the condition of the brain, various physical illnesses and imbalances, trauma, and so on), and I would never say, "You'll be perfectly happy" at all times, although it may depend on what is meant by happiness. And of course I agree with you that we can't simply drop a belief (or see and feel through the illusion of separation) at will--but then, I haven't heard anyone else suggest that we can, although probably someone has. But in my experience, I have found that we often hear teachings in ways that are not intended--we may hear suggestions or possibilities as commands, for example. It sounds like you may have had a somewhat frustrating or disappointing time at the retreat you were on, eh? 😊
Regarding your earlier comment about being "ready to drop all the so called 'Truth seeking'", in my experience, we can't drop the search at will either (and I didn't hear you suggesting that we could). As one teacher (I think it was Wayne Liquorman) put it, "seeking is like having sex with a 900 pound gorilla--you're not done until the gorilla is done." 😂 In my experience, seeking falls away, whether temporarily or permanently, when it is realized that what we are seeking is right here, that it's actually very simple, not exotic. Truly resting in not knowing just might be Ultimate Truth. Of course, it depends on what we mean by "not knowing"--and I think I just might feel my next Substack article coming on.... 😎
Much Love to you...❤️🙏
Thank you for this answer Joan. Yes, the teacher was Francis Lucille and it was very difficult for me.There was much talking about how we must realize that we are not a man or woman but we are consciousness. I’m not there yet. I’ve been seeking for 40 years mostly practicing Vipassana and Zen and feeling tired.Hoping for grace😂
Francis once said, everything is grace when we see it as grace. Including exhaustion. I've never really resonated with the notion that we are not a man or woman or a person. I prefer to say, that's not all we are, and the more closely we look at the person or the bodymind or the personality, the less solid and substantial and separate from everything else we find it all to be. But in everyday life, of course we are a person, and we have a personality (certain tendencies and ways of being) and an age and a gender and all of that. We couldn't function if we lost all sense of location and boundaries, or if we couldn't remember our name or discern the difference between our fingers and the carrot we are cutting up. But none of that is the problematic or illusory aspect that spirituality speaks of transcending. You know this.
And I would say, don't get hung up on the word consciousness. It simply points to the undeniable sense of being here, present and aware, without which (and outside of which) nothing can appear. In that sense, it's all there is. People debate whether or not there is a physical reality outside of consciousness, but how would we know one way or the other? Everything we see and think appears in consciousness (this aware presence). In that sense, it's all there is, and we are that.
But as you know, no way of expressing this is ever entirely perfect, because it can't really be captured by words. Our confusion is always in thinking, isn't it? Being here, being this present experiencing, is not confusing at all. It is effortlessly present. Unavoidable really. But then we start trying to figure it out, and we compare one teaching to another, and we wonder if we're really getting it, and we compare ourselves to others and seem to come up short, and next thing we know, we're confused and frustrated and exhausted. Vipassana and Zen are great ways of discovering how this happens, and also of waking up to the simplicity of here-now-being. We imagine being lost and confused. Anyway, much love to you. Rest up and have confidence in your own seeing...not your thinking...but the seeing that is right here. ❤️
Thank you. You express my predicament so clearly, much better than I could! I need to trust myself more and not look for answers outside. Yes, for me it makes more sense to say I am not only this body, these thoughts and feelings and perceptions. What we truly and deeply are is a mystery. The mind struggles but perhaps the heart can open to the full catastrophe of life and living. I’m deeply grateful for your replies. Sometime I’d like to meet again on Zoom.❤️
For what it's worth. Thoughts are relentless. I meditate about 45 minutes in the mornings. I walk away clear, calm, awake, and just do the next thing that comes to mind. 2 to 3 hours later. I am aware that I have let the thoughts slowly shuffle in. 5 hours later, I am the same recovering jerk I was before the meditation.
And yet, as I suspect you see, all of this is a story, nothing but thoughts, however relatively true that story seems, and it turns a lived experiencing that is actually very fluid and impermanent and ungraspable and never the same way twice into some-thing seemingly solid and predictable--and it reincarnates (in the imagination) the imaginary self, the "same recovering jerk I was before," and the body hums along with the story, further reinforcing it. Thoughts about thoughts. And all of it completely imaginary!
Some people report an almost completely silent mind most of the time. Others tell me they never have a moment without thoughts, although I suspect they do, however brief or unnoticed. In my experience (here's another story), thinking can go on even during meditation, and that's okay. No need to fight it or judge it, give it meaning or take it personally. It's all happening in the bigger silence. The whole notion of a "good meditation" and a "bad meditation" falls away and there is simply what is, as it is. And naturally, sitting in silence doing nothing or being on a silent retreat will be a different experience from daily life with all the responsibilities, relationships, emails, texts, phone calls, etc.
And what are thoughts when we look closely? Little energetic blips that are gone before they arrive, and yet they have this amazing magical capacity to unfold entire narratives and belief systems in the imagination, and create the seemingly solid, separate "me," the thinker. But when we look, no thinker can be found. It all vanishes into thin air. 🙏
Yes. Yes. Yes. You get the triple yes! Thank you for giving me your attention. I certainly feel the healing energy that is coming through your care. Oh, Joan... you are the voice of the Spirit that nurtures my heart and soul.
In order to provide some context, or to paraphrase some of your words, reincarnate the imaginary self for a few paragraphs, or simply, to tell some of my story:
I have been practicing and periodically teaching meditation for the past ten years. In 2015-2019, I maintained a consistent private practice of meditating 3-45 minute sets per day (not including meditating with others). The intent was to achieve 10K hours of meditation time over the next 15 years, so that I could comfortably describe myself as a "veteran meditator." It was a most peaceful time in my life. I can't say I have had a "bad" meditation. I tell people who ask about my practice that, "as a vehicle for removing stress, it works every time." It is the shortest distance from where I am, to peace. I love who I have become after the meditation. Even if the meditation did not go as expected. (Which is the definition of a "bad meditation.")
I eventually stopped tracking my meditation hours because I began see it as an act of arrogance. Once the journey became void of a destination the opportunities became limitless. I now practice 45 minutes after I awaken (usually around 4:30am), and get in 1 or 2 , 15 minute sessions after noon. Please forgive me, I know I am covering ground that is quite familiar to you.- A few of the thousand beautiful things I learned on this journey was:
1. Thought commotion does eventually re-appear after the meditations, providing structure and depth to my imaginary egoic self but, I find that I have become much more of an objective witness to my suggestive thoughts, even in times of commotion. They no longer have the allure they once did.
2. During and after the meditations my energy level is off the charts. Especially in group meds. where the "zone" is so easily attainable. Imagine, being on fire to learn everything about this "unknowable" gift. I continue to fall in love, over, and over again with the gift of breath, the gift of life. I will continue to reach for metaphors just beyond my grasp to seat a language that attempts to say the unsayable. And I feel no want to stop it. It is all so beautiful, spiritual, painful, deep, and marvelous. I feel the energy pulsing through my fingers even as I write these words.
3. I do not, nor will I ever have, the answers to each question put before me, unless the answer is, "I don't know." (Those three words are so honest, profound, freeing, and life giving on some occasions.)
During the meditations, once the breath has become calmed and even paced, and the dwindling thoughts dance in slow motion solo minuets, the intervals between them becoming more spacious in each sequence, and the realization that, "It is all happening in the bigger silence" has begun- the need to know disappears, and all these words become quite unnecessary.
Wonderful stuff Joan, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
Thanks again Joan. Nothing more needs to be said. Much Love and Gratitude.
Thank you, Joan. xo
Thank you, Joan!
Thank you, Joan. Reading this over coffee this morning really hit the spot (what spot?).
Yes! "It’s always just this! Ungraspable yet vividly right here." I'm less and less interested in grasping for "answers" and more and more blown away by whatever It is -- without trying to know what It is.
"It’s always just this!" Of course. I wish you could see me smiling. Maybe if I concentrate and focus on your spirit in the present, you will feel my smile. Calm... neutral... contented... smile. Peace always wise one.
Out Beyond by Rumi from A Year with Rumi
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing.
there is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in the grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase "each other"
doesn't make any sense.
I just read this poem after reading your "out pouring" it felt so perfect - thank you for
all the replies you gave - very helpful.
dear joan,
thank you for this and all you do. i love your writing.
one question though: what is it?
love,
myq